aizan
Veteran
i've never bought anything from this shop, but they have a near mint olive r2 at a good price:
http://www.vintageclassiccamera.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1490
http://www.vintageclassiccamera.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1490
John Robertson
Well-known
One thing I would say is fit and use a good neck strap on any camera., everyone is liable to let a camera slip because of ; wasps; people bumping into you; etc etc etc : At least it wont fall any further than your chest area. It may look "cool" without one, but a smashed camera does not look cool!!!
Brian Puccio
Well-known
Shouldn't something that is made well cost less in terms of repairs over the long run, not more? I'd think that something that costs more to repair or incurs more frequent repairs of the same price is something that is poorly made.
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
Heather, for the small amount of color that i shoot - I use First Photo on West Broadway. Small, little "hole in the wall" operation, but they run a lot of film and keep their chemicals up to date. Quick too, will do develop, print and a hi-res DVD in 45 min!
The M2 is a truly nice camera, but none of them are less than 45 years old. There is service available here in Vancouver - and if you get a good one, you will not need it more than once in a decade. Expect to pay between $600-700 for a clean one in a private sale.
Fair chance of finding decent lenses at the Swap too. Usually some Cosina stuff and even leica stuff - but the latter is mostly optimistically priced by the seller.
The M2 is a truly nice camera, but none of them are less than 45 years old. There is service available here in Vancouver - and if you get a good one, you will not need it more than once in a decade. Expect to pay between $600-700 for a clean one in a private sale.
Fair chance of finding decent lenses at the Swap too. Usually some Cosina stuff and even leica stuff - but the latter is mostly optimistically priced by the seller.
Krosya
Konicaze
Don't listen to Krosya about cameras, he likes the Leica M5, which immediately makes him extremely suspect and definitely in the minorityIf it were true that Bessas were as good all-round as a M2, then we'd all use Bessas....Clearly, though, we don't, and for good reasons, not just because we are retarded and like to waste money. (You know I love you Krosya!! ;P ). But, what Krosya has to say about lenses is very true, especially if you are looking at buying a new lens as a RF newbie. Strangely, Kroysa didn't suggest this, but you might take a look at a good 50/2 Hexanon lens, too.
Thomas
Ok Thomas, Let me respond to this.
"If bessa were as good as......" - well, same could be said about Toyotas and Jaguars - or any other cars, or products - we are lucky to have many choices in any product. However, to me, - Bessas make more sense in this case. BTW, Bessas can be re-sold for about what they sell for. Last black R2 sold for $425 on ebay - not bad for a camera that sold for less when new.
But really, why would a person who is new to RF, want an old, more complicated camera (no meter, bottom loading - M2) with a good chance of needing service over a newer, easier to use Bessa? Plus you cant burn any holes in Bessa's shutter, unlike any film Leica.
Possibly later, when this person figures out that RF is something they want to stay with - it may be a good idea to get into Leica. But till than - why?
Even Leica thought that having a built-in meter was a good idea, or why did they do it?
If M2 is as good all-round - why dont we all use it?
Oh, I DID suggest M-Hexanon lenses in my original post, right after CV lenses. You'll find it, Thomas, if you re-read it. hehe.
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heatherselkie
Member
Hi, I was just looking at tokyostyle.com and somebody had a leica strung around their neck with a SHOELACE! I wouldn't be that lax with a camera. I am clumsy but I haven't dropped a camera yet. or have I? Once my mom dropped her film slr into a lake and she dried it out and it worked perfectly fine!
Let me explain that I used to have a bmw. It was beautiful-all chromey and shiny and fast, I loved it and it was a good deal. People thought I was rich but I was like 'it's just a 17 year old used car." But my financial and work situation changed so that I really should not have kept the car. It had issues I hadn't known about that exploded into a major major problem and other things kept going wrong kind of like Murphy's Law. I learned how to fix easy things myself so that I didn't have to take it to Hans or Fritz or other certified german trained bmw mechanics. However, the parts, the labour, the repairs cost too much. Even a local mechanic was like sell it! So I could not afford to fix the car. I figured I would just save up the money, but I never could. As much as I loved the bmw I could not afford to have it. It did not matter that I was able to make the initial outlay to buy the car, I could not afford to HAVE the car. The sad thing is those old bmw's can last forever and somebody with resources and know how got my car for nothing and repaired my bmw and it is as good as new. On one hand I had an ultimate driving machine for a few years, had amazing road trips and got to learn the difference between fine german engineering and a ford, old honda or a k car. On the other I was faced with the reality that I can't necessarily have the $$$$ stuff.
So this is what I mean about the cost of repairs when it comes to super fine things. This is what makes me nervous about older Leicas. If I save up money and luck out on an affordable Leica and it has a hidden fault or it breaks and needs to be repaired what if I cannot afford it? What if as usual the minute the Leica has a rare but fatal mishap my cat gets into a fight and needs to go to cat ER? Cats win out every time. People talk about cla's costing more than bessas!
Let me explain that I used to have a bmw. It was beautiful-all chromey and shiny and fast, I loved it and it was a good deal. People thought I was rich but I was like 'it's just a 17 year old used car." But my financial and work situation changed so that I really should not have kept the car. It had issues I hadn't known about that exploded into a major major problem and other things kept going wrong kind of like Murphy's Law. I learned how to fix easy things myself so that I didn't have to take it to Hans or Fritz or other certified german trained bmw mechanics. However, the parts, the labour, the repairs cost too much. Even a local mechanic was like sell it! So I could not afford to fix the car. I figured I would just save up the money, but I never could. As much as I loved the bmw I could not afford to have it. It did not matter that I was able to make the initial outlay to buy the car, I could not afford to HAVE the car. The sad thing is those old bmw's can last forever and somebody with resources and know how got my car for nothing and repaired my bmw and it is as good as new. On one hand I had an ultimate driving machine for a few years, had amazing road trips and got to learn the difference between fine german engineering and a ford, old honda or a k car. On the other I was faced with the reality that I can't necessarily have the $$$$ stuff.
So this is what I mean about the cost of repairs when it comes to super fine things. This is what makes me nervous about older Leicas. If I save up money and luck out on an affordable Leica and it has a hidden fault or it breaks and needs to be repaired what if I cannot afford it? What if as usual the minute the Leica has a rare but fatal mishap my cat gets into a fight and needs to go to cat ER? Cats win out every time. People talk about cla's costing more than bessas!
Gazzah
RF newbie
Camerasand cars -
Camerasand cars -
I would whole heartedly agree with starting with a bessa then maybe at some stage moving up to something else. Find out if RF is for you on something affordable. I started recently with a Bessa R, then got an R3A. Love and use both.
Then an M5 fell into my hands at a very good price, Id always wanted one since using my uncles back in the early 70’s – now after a GAS attack I also have an M6. But the Bessa R3A is still what I grab if Im going out street shooting or don’t want to worry about carrying a camera around in some dodgy areas.
To continue your car analogy I used to own a TVR, hand built 4.5ltr V8 sports car – I loved it, I paid a lot for it, paid a lot to keep it running – now I drive a VW golf diesel - it works but…. The bessas would be the VW the Leicas would be the TVR. If you pay the money up front you can get a good one, if you don’t you will end up paying in the long run anyway on fixups…
Now I have to many cameras (again) and need to thin them out to pay for better glass, so learn from the rest of us and get a camera that does what you want and can afford easily, then spend your money on good glass….
Camerasand cars -
I would whole heartedly agree with starting with a bessa then maybe at some stage moving up to something else. Find out if RF is for you on something affordable. I started recently with a Bessa R, then got an R3A. Love and use both.
Then an M5 fell into my hands at a very good price, Id always wanted one since using my uncles back in the early 70’s – now after a GAS attack I also have an M6. But the Bessa R3A is still what I grab if Im going out street shooting or don’t want to worry about carrying a camera around in some dodgy areas.
To continue your car analogy I used to own a TVR, hand built 4.5ltr V8 sports car – I loved it, I paid a lot for it, paid a lot to keep it running – now I drive a VW golf diesel - it works but…. The bessas would be the VW the Leicas would be the TVR. If you pay the money up front you can get a good one, if you don’t you will end up paying in the long run anyway on fixups…
Now I have to many cameras (again) and need to thin them out to pay for better glass, so learn from the rest of us and get a camera that does what you want and can afford easily, then spend your money on good glass….
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wgerrard
Veteran
Heather, I saw those shots of the shoestring straps. Hope they were tough laces.
I don't like carrying a camera on a strap around my neck, so I usually carry the things in my right hand, anchored with a wrist strap. The biggest worry is whacking the camera against something as you walk. I haven't dropped a camera but I've mentioned elsewhere that I've fallen on them They came off in better shape than I did.
A CLA for the price of a new Bessa seems excessive. A CLA, however, doesn't cover repairs discovered during the cleaning, lubricating and adjusting. Opinions vary on the need to send a Leica out for a CLA soon after purchase. Certainly, if you have a chance to see and test a camera before buying it, you'll be in a better position. I have two cameras that have been serviced. One, an Olympus OM-2N, needed a bit of work after I bought it online and John Hermanson did a great job. The other, my M2, had been CLA'd by Youxin Ye before I bought it from him.
All that said, the R4M was the first RF I bought. As others have suggested, it's a great way to go. You'll have a new camera, under warranty if you buy from a Voigtlaender dealer (like Cameraquest). Occasionally you see comments deriding Bessas as cheap and plasticky. That's certainly not my impression of my R4M. I really like my M2 and enjoy using it very much - it does have that appeal -- but, honestly, the R4M is a more comfortable and convenient camera to take out for the day.
I don't like carrying a camera on a strap around my neck, so I usually carry the things in my right hand, anchored with a wrist strap. The biggest worry is whacking the camera against something as you walk. I haven't dropped a camera but I've mentioned elsewhere that I've fallen on them They came off in better shape than I did.
A CLA for the price of a new Bessa seems excessive. A CLA, however, doesn't cover repairs discovered during the cleaning, lubricating and adjusting. Opinions vary on the need to send a Leica out for a CLA soon after purchase. Certainly, if you have a chance to see and test a camera before buying it, you'll be in a better position. I have two cameras that have been serviced. One, an Olympus OM-2N, needed a bit of work after I bought it online and John Hermanson did a great job. The other, my M2, had been CLA'd by Youxin Ye before I bought it from him.
All that said, the R4M was the first RF I bought. As others have suggested, it's a great way to go. You'll have a new camera, under warranty if you buy from a Voigtlaender dealer (like Cameraquest). Occasionally you see comments deriding Bessas as cheap and plasticky. That's certainly not my impression of my R4M. I really like my M2 and enjoy using it very much - it does have that appeal -- but, honestly, the R4M is a more comfortable and convenient camera to take out for the day.
zozio32
Member
I have to say, Leica seems to be beautifull camera, and I may end up with one one day (or may be a Zeiss ZI, who knows...). In the mean time, I got in rangefinder this summer with a black R2, a color skopar 35mm f2.5 and a jupiter 8, and I found the lot very nice to use. The viewfinder is nice and clear, no problem with the frame line, the camera and lenses are well made.
Really, a used bessa and a "cheap" lens to start with is a very good way to get into it, anf if you're still lusting after a Leica, you should be able to sell it quite easily.
Having a lightmeter integrated is really nice, and I always found them quite reliable if you know what you're doing.
Really, a used bessa and a "cheap" lens to start with is a very good way to get into it, anf if you're still lusting after a Leica, you should be able to sell it quite easily.
Having a lightmeter integrated is really nice, and I always found them quite reliable if you know what you're doing.
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
heather, I got the date for the swapmeet, it is the 7th of November (not late Nov, as i thought). It is at the Croatian Center on Main Street - a couple of block from the Kingsway/Main Skytrain station. Usually the cheap entry is at 9.30 and the more expensive is 8 or 8.30.
I will be there with a table, usually piled with my friends stuff!
I will be there with a table, usually piled with my friends stuff!
Scrambler
Well-known
Hi Heather! As a fellow newcomer to the forum, I wanted to let you know about the not-yet-mentioned fact that the original VC Bessa R (screw mount) also came in olive. I picked one up froma reputable ebay seller for about US$220 plus postage. This will do everything the R2 will except take M-mount lenses. Which my budget (and yours?) won't stretch to anyway, so I save twice. A couple of ex-Soviet lenses and the whole outfit should set you back less than $300 landed.
My previous RF experiences were a beaten Leica IIIa (considerably cheaper than the Bessa) and a FED 2. I feel your pain re the separate viewfinder and RF. My advice is to sell your Bessa T unless you plan to get a long lens. My compromise is that the pride of my lens collection - a Nikon 85mm f2 - is probably going to be hit-and-miss on the Bessa R where the Leica separate RF gives about 3-4 times the precision.
A little-known fact: the rather nice 35mm f2.8 Jupiter-12 (with the huge rear element) will safely mount on the Bessa R but most examples won't focus to infinity and none will meter. I got lucky on the focus.
My previous RF experiences were a beaten Leica IIIa (considerably cheaper than the Bessa) and a FED 2. I feel your pain re the separate viewfinder and RF. My advice is to sell your Bessa T unless you plan to get a long lens. My compromise is that the pride of my lens collection - a Nikon 85mm f2 - is probably going to be hit-and-miss on the Bessa R where the Leica separate RF gives about 3-4 times the precision.
A little-known fact: the rather nice 35mm f2.8 Jupiter-12 (with the huge rear element) will safely mount on the Bessa R but most examples won't focus to infinity and none will meter. I got lucky on the focus.
heatherselkie
Member
Hello Scrambler, yes I did see that the bessa R was made in olive as well. I was hesitant about the R because of the ltm mount, but since i see no M mount lenses in the near future I can see the advantage to the R. It is a bit more plasticy than the R2 onwards models. After failing miserably at first my last 3 films rolls have been exciting. Only problem is the disconnect between the viewfinder and the rangefinder making for some odd photos.
I'd get a soviet lens that I know works, but afraid to buy them on ebay etc..
I'd get a soviet lens that I know works, but afraid to buy them on ebay etc..
Scrambler
Well-known
Soviet lenses and working: well, if you are after Zeiss or Leica standards, forget it. But as the FSU RF fanatics say, they are decent performers, well above the run-of-the-mill fixed lenses though not high-end. The mechanics are usually simple and while they can be stiff or sloppy, it's normally curable with appropriate grease.
I have gone for the theory that I get an ugly lens in a given focal length or design, because I'm wanting to experiment. Down the track a better-performing lens might be a possibility.
If you are prepared to wait, and to gamble a little, ebay can deliver good value. I've been happy with all my purchases to date. I'm putting that to a severe test with a $23 100mm Canon RF lens described as "cloudy." But at $23 (plus $12 postage) it's hard to see how the lens will be so useless I won't get value from it.
I would suggest a Jupiter-8 (50mm F2) from any ebay site with >99% feedback and a few hundred sales. That should cost less than $50. They were slightly better than standard lenses and should have been used by more interested photographers. The faster, longer or wider Soviet lenses are more of a risk with Bessas. The Jupiter 8 is my go-to lens. It's a lovely sharp lens stopped down in bright light but develops an attractive (to me) dreamy character at wide apertures. Character aside, it will still punch out photos in pretty dim light. The design is a Zeiss Sonnar - no slouch of a lens and with a character that Zeiss still use in their current lineup.
Your 90mm Elmar is well within the focussing capabilities of the Bessa R/R2 series.
Finally, don't be too concerned about the abstract art. The fully manual process (even through the same viewfinder there are three distinct processes of Lighting, Focus and Framing) is just prone to more user error until the whole thing becomes ingrained.
I have gone for the theory that I get an ugly lens in a given focal length or design, because I'm wanting to experiment. Down the track a better-performing lens might be a possibility.
If you are prepared to wait, and to gamble a little, ebay can deliver good value. I've been happy with all my purchases to date. I'm putting that to a severe test with a $23 100mm Canon RF lens described as "cloudy." But at $23 (plus $12 postage) it's hard to see how the lens will be so useless I won't get value from it.
I would suggest a Jupiter-8 (50mm F2) from any ebay site with >99% feedback and a few hundred sales. That should cost less than $50. They were slightly better than standard lenses and should have been used by more interested photographers. The faster, longer or wider Soviet lenses are more of a risk with Bessas. The Jupiter 8 is my go-to lens. It's a lovely sharp lens stopped down in bright light but develops an attractive (to me) dreamy character at wide apertures. Character aside, it will still punch out photos in pretty dim light. The design is a Zeiss Sonnar - no slouch of a lens and with a character that Zeiss still use in their current lineup.
Your 90mm Elmar is well within the focussing capabilities of the Bessa R/R2 series.
Finally, don't be too concerned about the abstract art. The fully manual process (even through the same viewfinder there are three distinct processes of Lighting, Focus and Framing) is just prone to more user error until the whole thing becomes ingrained.
Ramersdorfer
Member
Have you seen the olive R2 that appeared today in the classifieds?
No connection to the seller, just thought you might be interested!
No connection to the seller, just thought you might be interested!