New to photography and need some direction/camera advice...

[CK Dexter Haven]

$200.
I'd suggest that a P&S camera is not the best way to develop skills, or your eye, and it probably isn't the best gauge of your talents. Lots of people use them to great effect, but a squinty viewfinder, a focal length that may not suit you, and a lack of controls... not the best way to learn photography.

Two things: you like the look of film and have (only) $200 to spend, so that sorta rules out digital for any kind of digital camera that would be better for you than the Epic.

I'd suggest a film SLR. I'd first suggest that you analyze the images you want to make and get a sense of the focal length(s) most often used to get them. If you use flickr, lots of photographers include that information alongside their images. Once you have a grip on that, i'd find out which (likely manual focus) PRIME lenses are good in the under $100 range (nikon, Canon FD, Pentax, or Olympus). From there, choose an SLR that fits it.

For example, if you like a 50mm lens, i'd suggest a Nikon 50mm 1.8 Series E. You can get that for $50+/-. And, then look for a Nikon FE2 or something like that. If you wanted an autofocus camera, a Nikon F80/N80 and a 50/1.8, although if you want to photograph people, the manual 1.8 E will give you better background blur.... Same process with other brands. A Pentax 50/1.4 is an amazing lens. An ME-super is a great body to pair with it....

Some other nuances — if you've identified, say, Tri-X as a film you want to shoot, and you want to shoot it in bright daylight, with a wide aperture, you'll want to get a body with a faster top shutter speed than 1/1000. That sort of thing. So, it's probably good to share with us as many details as you can recognize.

It's actually a very good thing that you think you're only getting a small number of 'keepers.' That might mean you have a discerning eye. If you liked everything you shot, you'd either be a genius or someone who'd never develop....

 

[David Hughes]

Reading this entire thread again I'm amazed by the number of posters who think a new camera solves problems. As I see it working out what went wrong might be a better idea. In my part of the world it's called learning to walk before you start running...

There's only two sensible controls to learn on the Olympus and that's the focussing and the spot metering. Mostly it's why and how to use them that need to be mastered and, of course, the film may have an effect but we don't know do we?

Just my 2d worth.

Regards, David

 

[johnnyrod]

We like buying stuff too much. Seriously though, I mostly agree - it's not what you have but how you ride it. The only provsio I'd say though is that if you're learning then you need something that you feel comfortable with; for example, composition is easier with an SLR than a rangefinder because you see the picture you're going to take, although it won't fit in your pocket. Or some automation helps you take pictures by reducing the number of things you have to think about at any one time, although you can lose control of what is going on e.g. metering getting fooled by backlighting.

There's another thread going on just now with a similar theme, coming at it from the other end:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154573

 

[MIkhail]

My very honest suggestion would be- go with digital camera. Something basic like used Canon D40 with kit zoom lens will do nicely to learn the mechanics of taking picture without wasting a lot of money on film. Seriously. Use it until you figure out what you want to do. Then you can decide.
Don’t bother fiddling with various SLR vs. various Rangefinders, slide vs. black and white film and all that crap. Focus on taking pictures – picture is a final product, after all. If you forget about this you will end up regretting the opportunities you missed by fiddling around with new/different camera / lens rather than concentrating on taking a shot. Believe me, I am speaking from experience.

 

[CK Dexter Haven]

Reading this entire thread again I'm amazed by the number of posters who think a new camera solves problems. As I see it working out what went wrong might be a better idea. In my part of the world it's called learning to walk before you start running...

There's only two sensible controls to learn on the Olympus and that's the focussing and the spot metering. Mostly it's why and how to use them that need to be mastered and, of course, the film may have an effect but we don't know do we?

Just my 2d worth.

Regards, David

Well, you can't really tell what's in focus with an Epic —*you don't see focus. What do you have, a confirmation light? I sold my Epic last year and don't remember. Regardless, i've owned a few autofocus cameras that had problems with their AF, so unless you know it's calibrated and working 100%.... Secondly, it seems counterintuitive to me to learn photography on a 'system' that doesn't show the effects of focusing. That includes real rangefinders, but i'm sure i'm in the minority on that topic in this forum.

Spot metering. I've used a spot meter less than a handful of times in 30 years. It's just not necessary with all types of photography.

It's not that a new camera solves problems. It's that the wrong camera for a beginner can create problems and/or limit the opportunities for understanding the principles. Or, maybe i should say that the Epic is absolutely not an ideal starting point, so Yes, a different camera would be better.

Learning to walk. Exactly. But, not with his shoelaces tied together. If you take a Photography 101 course, there isn't one instructor in the world that would mandate a non-adjustable P&S camera as the learning tool. Every course i've ever seen requires an adjustable (manual and/or aperture-/shutter-priority) camera.

 

[BillBingham2]

Reading this entire thread again I'm amazed by the number of posters who think a new camera solves problems. As I see it working out what went wrong might be a better idea. In my part of the world it's called learning to walk before you start running...

There's only two sensible controls to learn on the Olympus and that's the focussing and the spot metering. Mostly it's why and how to use them that need to be mastered and, of course, the film may have an effect but we don't know do we?

Just my 2d worth.

Regards, David

Perhaps a good approach might be to look at the non-keepers and see what makes them non-keepers. There will be several reasons, but are there any the a camera with different feature/functions that would make them keepers?

Fosucing on making more keepers is a great approach but just looking at the numbers needs to be balanced against what makes it a keeper vs a no-show.

Manual focus, auto exposure, digital, analog, think about what will help you get more keepers but don't change too many variables at once.

B2

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

Well, in the first post to start this thread I read "but in all of this time I've got maybe 3 or 4 shots that I really liked. The rest were either a bit blurry, overexposed or just boring. I find that I'm still taking better pictures with my iPhone 6".

And I know the little Olympus and like it as it offers sensible over-rides compared to the normal compact P&S. But we can all think of reasons why pictures can be blurred and the over rides I mentioned could be the cause of it, probably inadvertently.

Properly handled the Olympus can turn out decent pictures but it needs to be understood. That was behind my first post in this thread.

As for all manual camera (focus, aperture, exposure and shutter speed), they involve too many choices in my opinion to start with. I won't list them all but you really need a mentor beside you or else years of experience to use them. I've nothing against the K1000 but I think it's like throwing someone in the deep end and expecting them to learn to swim that way. If he/she was about to take a course I'd suggest it and a few others.

Lastly, one of the opinions is surely stick to what he has and learn to use it. It seems OK judging by the pictures put up as samples.

Regards, David

PS And I know what's in focus in my little Olympus because I've read the manual. If it needed a repair, then that would be a different matter but I've known repairs be needed to manual SLR's because the picture was out of focus. The argument isn't specific to P&S...

 

[CK Dexter Haven]

Hi,

Well, in the first post to start this thread I read "but in all of this time I've got maybe 3 or 4 shots that I really liked. The rest were either a bit blurry, overexposed or just boring. I find that I'm still taking better pictures with my iPhone 6".

And I know the little Olympus and like it as it offers sensible over-rides compared to the normal compact P&S. But we can all think of reasons why pictures can be blurred and the over rides I mentioned could be the cause of it, probably inadvertently.

Properly handled the Olympus can turn out decent pictures but it needs to be understood. That was behind my first post in this thread.

As for all manual camera (focus, aperture, exposure and shutter speed), they involve too many choices in my opinion to start with. I won't list them all but you really need a mentor beside you or else years of experience to use them. I've nothing against the K1000 but I think it's like throwing someone in the deep end and expecting them to learn to swim that way. If he/she was about to take a course I'd suggest it and a few others.

Lastly, one of the opinions is surely stick to what he has and learn to use it. It seems OK judging by the pictures put up as samples.

Regards, David

PS And I know what's in focus in my little Olympus because I've read the manual. If it needed a repair, then that would be a different matter but I've known repairs be needed to manual SLR's because the picture was out of focus. The argument isn't specific to P&S...

I hope this can be considered a discussion, and not an 'argument,' but:
I've owned (purchased Used) a Contax G2, Fuji GA645i, and Fuji GA645zi — that all needed their AF 'modules' re-calibrated/adjusted. No amount of reading the manual would have prevented the slightly out of focus results that could not have been predicted, and were only recognized after the price was paid in wasted film and opportunities. With an AF non-SLR camera, you can only trust the AF system is working up to spec. The point is, some of these things do require repair.

"focus, aperture, exposure and shutter speed), they involve too many choices in my opinion to start with."

I'd wager 90% of us began with just those variables. I don't think they're too much for any person of reasonable intelligence. If you can drive a car, these four choices are manageable, in that even if one makes mistakes, they're made toward progress and no one gets hurt. And, some of these can be eliminated/minimized. I'd advise starting with a camera that has aperture priority mode. And, manual focus, on an SLR, is the simplest thing in the world with all of the subject matter shown in the OP's samples.

I kinda disagree that the Epic offers 'sensible overrides.' It's a big of a kludge to do anything other than point and shoot it, and the procedure for making any overrides doesn't really apply to whatever 'real' camera the OP will eventually advance toward.

Overall, though, i think the best thing the OP can do is to get a camera that has a more comfortable viewfinder than the Epic provides. That, alone, would be a significant advantage in composing. And one that shows the exposure information is the next step. Seeing how adjustment of aperture affects shutter speeds in real time, with clearly marked 'minimum/shake' shutter speeds in view.... That sort of thing.

And, he says he has $200 to work with. That doesn't obligate him to never use the Epic. Most of us have 'serious' cameras, and we augment them with a P&S/compact. I know i would feel tremendously handicapped and less enthused with photography if the Epic were my only camera, as capable as it may be. Isn't that the real point? To get the OP a device that best helps him to realize his potential? This isn't an exercise in 'make do.'

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

I thought it was an argument until he/she posted the photo's. I thought that because we weren't sure until then and were just banging the drum for our answer to a vague problem.

As I saw the problem the camera's output was 3 classes; boring, blurry and keepers. But there were no percentages; it might have been (respectively) 95%, 4% and 1% or any variation of any figures.

Once I saw the pictures and hoped they were a representative sample (the bane of my working life) I thought a P&S would be a perfectly good camera and perhaps it was technique or not having the instruction manual as the camera obviously worked and didn't appear to have a dirty or scratched lens.

My experience of AF is that it can be fooled and that can be over-ridden using the focus lock. My experience of poor focus that can be repaired is limited to RF's (no surprise there) and SLR's (one before and one after overhauls); caused by mechanical failure imo.

There's a 'but' coming because the 'multi-beam' AF system on the Olympus chooses the subject if several targets are presented. I'm not 100% sure exactly how this works as it also has the half press focus lock. One of these days I'll look into it but fttb...

The spot metering may or may not interact with the focusing, getting complicated now, and so I am hoping to see the duff photo's.

My objection to the multiple suggestions about a digital SLR or similar is the 200 dollars, pounds or euros won't go far once the printer has be added to the list. And the cost of ink might overtake the cost of film rapidly but that depends on the lab and requirements. (The cost of film and D&P'ing or D and scanning is so variable from 4 to 24 UK pounds, thanks to Poundland and Asda (large UK stores) and others at the other/dearer extreme.)

Talking of film, the lab comes into it as it's B&W and colour and scans seem to be involved.

So, as I see it, we need more information and then we can answer the questions.

As for first cameras, my first gave me no choice, my second had a few (3 speeds, B & T) and not much choice of aperture (from f/6.3 I guess). I learnt by making the most of it and improving on it as I could afford to.

BTW, I'm happy with the over rides on the Olympus as I can use 'spot' (although I don't know the angle it uses) for odd exposure problems and the focus lock for odd focus problems. As it's a P&S I'm happy with 'P' mode because the film will give me some say in that. Obviously, I hope, I'm also aware of its limitations but I don't regard it as my main camera nor do I think it perfect but like a few others it comes close; they all have flaws.

Regards, David

 

[Santtu Määttänen]

When it comes to learning, digital is far faster road to getting the hang of basics. It's something most of us here didn't have available when we started (and such it might seem bit counter intuitive). How ever you can shoot full manual digital few thousand or tens of thousands pictures in a year. If you really concentrate on shooting every single frame, it's amazing learning experience. Something we who started with film (and/or who still shoot film) had to work years or even decades to do.

New camera doesn't make you better. If there's manual everything camera app for your phone, then that would be the easiest and cheapest (for you) road to go. After you're confident on your choices and you feel that there really must be something to this photography craze your going through. Get a nice camera, by nice I don't mean expensive, but one you enjoy holding, carrying around, and with manual settings. It might be digital, it might be film. But at that point even your Olympus PS will be working more to your instincts 🙂

If you would love to just try a decent film camera and you walk everywhere. I recommend Nikon FG-20 and a nice small pancake lens. Reason being, it's very very light, quite small, has manual settings, light meter with easy to find battery cells and it's even cute. Of course viewfinder ain't large, it ain't tough and pro, nor even semipro. But it works and by being light can be taken everywhere. Besides that combo can be had under 100 euros 🙂

First things first, don't spend money on gear unless it's something you really feel would help you. Your phone is a good starting point and after you get the hang of taking pictures, make your own choices and build your own road.

Have fun learning!

 

[Paul T.]

The Pentax K1000 was the penultimate student SLR camera in the 70's.
.

Interesting thread.

I don't see a new camera as the solution - for a start, the OP probably prefers autofocus, so am doubtful an SLR would help. If the OP knows someone who can lend them a camera, rather than simply buying a new one, that might be a good idea.

I think going back with the Epic, experimenting more is the way to go. The other alternative is to try a digital autofocus P&S as it's easier to work out what's happening.

And Kuzano, I don't understand your post. Why the penultimate camera?

 

[David Hughes]

Interesting thread.

I don't see a new camera as the solution - for a start, the OP probably prefers autofocus, so am doubtful an SLR would help. If the OP knows someone who can lend them a camera, rather than simply buying a new one, that might be a good idea.

I think going back with the Epic, experimenting more is the way to go. The other alternative is to try a digital autofocus P&S as it's easier to work out what's happening.

And Kuzano, I don't understand your post. Why the penultimate camera?

Hi,

I'll second that and I'd like to know what is going wrong so that we can help. It could be something simple, we've all been there and done that - but I am still waiting for my T-shirt to come. ;-)

Regards, David

 

[mdarnton]

Looking at your pictures, I think you're fine with the equipment you have. What I see in the photos is someone who's still shooting ideas, but hasn't yet figured out how to make them into strong visuals, and that's entirely in your head, not the camera.

If I were giving advice, I'd say you need to start taking your ideas, which are solid, and which I can definitely see in your pictures, and turn them into something to tickle eyes.
Right now the photos are like notes in a notebook of things you see that you think are interesting, not statements. They don't quite have composition; they aren't quite tightly framed enough; there's no sense of balance--they're entirely intellectual. That's not bad; it's a great start. I'm not sure how to change that without actually going out with you to take pictures. 🙂

So who is your favorite photographer?