New Zeiss Ikon Rangefinder

[Huck Finn]

Thanks a lot Doug. That's a lot of information. When you factor in inflation, that price is pretty much where the Hexar RF started out 5 years ago. The Hexar RF was unique at the time & this accounted for its sales. It will be interesting to see if the ZI can impact the market several years further into the digital takeover & now that both the M7 & R2a/R3a are on the market.

They seem to be banking on the excellence of their lenses for marketing. The lenses are the first thing presented in their brochure. Since the new lenses are based on lenses developed for the movie industry, it will be interesting to see if this camera gets a big reception from the Hollywood crowd. That could elevate the profile.

The Limited Edition Konica Hexar RF with the incredibly fast f/1.2 lens continues to sit at B&H for $2500. It makes you wonder.

$2200 with lens. Hmmm . . . :bang:

 

[Roger]

A local Japanese version of the Zeiss RF

A local Japanese version of the Zeiss RF

I read that initially it will be out in black only in Japan - a concession to Cosina I assume. Hasselblad will be the world-wide distributor everywhere except Japan, so again I assume that Cosina will be the Japanese distributor. Maybe B&H can do their thing . . . go out & buy a bunch of them in Japan so that they are available here in both finishes AND at a cheaper price. That would be nice! Anyone know what the Cosina distribution network is like in Japan?

Wow! If true, that's the best news I've read in a long while. I have in mind the parallel with the Fuji TX-2, the version of the Xpan II that Fuji makes for the Japanese market. It is very considerably cheaper than the Hasselblad! If Cosina can pull that off in Japan, although of course retaining the Zeiss name, there just MIGHT be a similar built-in discount. I don't know much about the Cosina distribution network, but all the big camera chains carry the full CV range as a matter of course, and the smaller specialist shops carry them too. I would think it was adequate.

And there is undoubtedly a digital rangefinder from Zeiss in the offing. Why else would they make large retrofocus wide-angle lenses for a RANGEFINDER for goodness sake? My guess is that they want to minimize the cosine-law fall-off, which is not helped by the narrower acceptance angle of digital sensor cells--and not completely cured even with the Epson RD-1's lenticular approach.

Roger

 

[Huck Finn]

Roger, the Hasselblad sales rep at PhotoPlus Expo in New York repeatedly discouraged the idea of a digital Zeiss Ikon anytime in the near future because of the problems in developing a sensor that can manage wide angles. He said that such a camera is a long way off. I also saw the Epson RD-1 in New York & while it is a digital rangefinder, it has not conquered this problem. Were the Hasselblad rep's comments straight talk or sales talk? Who knows. Both Zeiss & Leica have stated that they are doing the R&D to develop such a camera. For now, Epson provides a digital body on which to use the world's best lenses but not one that can cover the full range of those lenses.

Zeiss has stated that their new lenses have been designed to work with a digital system. However, there are other reasons to use retrofocus designs on wide angle lenses. Unlike SLR lenses which use retrofocus to compensate for the distance at which the lens must be set to accomodate the SLR mirror, retrofocus design is used on RF lenses to correct aberrations & make these lenses even sharper. It is my understaning that the vast majority of Cosina's Voigtlander lenses are retrofocus designs as are many - if not most - from other RF manufacturers as well. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[JohnL]

Canon is now making a 10-22mm lens to cover the APS format for its 20D and 300D (Rebel) DSLRs. 10mm for APS corresponds to 16mm in full format 35mm. That's a reasonably wide angle. Additionally, these two bodies have current street prices of about $1500 (new kid on the block) and around $800 (likely to be replaced soon?) respectively. Sigma makes a 12-24mm lens that covers the full 35mm format.

 

[Roger]

I don't understand this. The RD-1 is capable of using the world's widest ever RF lens, the CV 12mm. The Cosine law fall off is as great within the more restricted field of view due to the multiplying effect of the smaller sensor area as it is for the wider field of view on a full-frame image. By which I mean you don't get the improvement you might expect from using only the more central portion of the image. But that's quite "livable." And there appear to be no other degradations of the image. I am not talking hearsay. My friend has an RD-1 and I have seen the results he gets. As far as I am concerned the Epson answer works, although doubtless it can and will be improved. How much wider can you get than 12mm? I think that's a pretty definitive proof of viability.

I seriously question whether the retrofocus design offers compensating advantages for their greater size and cost, although I suppose with more variables to juggle with there may be some neat trade-offs to be made. I leave the question of whether CV wides are or are not retrofocus to those who can recognize one when they see one. <g> To me, non-retrofocus have always been more or less symmetrical along the optical axis, no?

 

[Pherdinand]

The definition (one of them) of retrofocus lenses is that the backfocal distance is longer than the focal length of the lens in a ratio of 1:0.8 or more. BFD = the distance between the last glass surface and the film plane when the lens is focused to infinity.

Today it's pretty hard to recognize retrofocus design lenses; however, there should be two distinct lens groups, a negative in front and a positive in the back...

 

[Pherdinand]

Here's the retrofocus of retrofocusses, a 6mm f/2.8 nikkor, 220 degrees field of view😀 Now on this one it's not too hard to recognize i guess...

 

[Pherdinand]

This older brother (6/5.6) of the above, however, is not a retrofocus, although i would have guessed it is.

Sorry for the SLR lenses but couldn't find good RF examples 🙄

 

[Roger]

Your second example is interesting, Pherdinand, as I certainly wouldn't have guessed it was not a retrofocus design, although I'll accept your claim that it is--presumably based on a description from Nikon?. In my book, as I put in my earlier note, non-retros are usually more or less symmetrical. Hard to see how this one pulls it off, although the lens does extend about equally on both sides of the physical center of the lens...

 

[Pherdinand]

yes, pretty surprising to me as well, so i checked several sources which all say that this is one of the older fisheyes, of similar non-retrofocus design... the first retrofocus one was released a year later. However, you can see here (PDF file) that the backfocal distance (11.3mm) is almost double of the focal length (6.2mm), so i also don't understand, why it is considered non-retrofocus...

 

[Huck Finn]

The following retail lens prices, announced in Japan, have been posted on photo.net. I have also listed conversion into US dollars.

50/2 Planar =75,000 yen ($706)
35/2 Biogon = 95,000 yen ($894)
28/2.8 Biogon = 95,000 yen ($894)
25/2.8 Biogon = 105,000 yen ($988)
21/2.8 Biogon = 120,000 yen ($1129)

Based on the comments from Photokina & PhotoPlus Expo that prices would be 40% less than Leica - maybe a little less - these prices are substantially less than I expected with the exception of the 50/2, which is just about what I thought it would be. Still pricey compared to Voigtlander (about double the cost where a comparable lens exists), it will be interesting to see how they perform in use.

It will be interesting to see if these prices hold up when they come to the states. Since Cosina is the distributor in Japan, we should probably expect that prices will be higher in the rest of the world. With Cosina acting as distributor, these are essentially direct-from-the-factory prices. With Hasselblad as distributor elsewhere, there will be an extra layer of cost.

 

[Roger]

Well, one thing's for sure. All the new Zeiss wide angles are large, fairly substantial retrofocous lenses, and will be better with digital sensor chips. Makes me think a digital RF is somewhere in the offing, probably waiting on the reaction to the RD-1. I mean, if Epson can sell fair numbers of the RD-1 at THAT price, there's room for Zeiss to come in and make some money, too. And meanwhile they may get to sell some lenses for it, too!

 

[Huck Finn]

Note that the prices above are taken from the Cosina website, which has now opened a Zeiss section. Although it is only in Japanese, you can get a rough translation by running it through http://babelfish.altavista.com

www.cosina.co.jp

 

[Roger]

Note that the prices above are taken from the Cosina website, which has now opened a Zeiss section. Although it is only in Japanese, you can get a rough translation by running it through http://babelfish.altavista.com

www.cosina.co.jp

I'm most interested in the 25mm lens, and immediately visited the site to see the details. It looks pretty close to a symmetrical non-retro design, which surprised me, as I had read elsewhere to the contrary. I have no problem with the Japanese text, having lived and worked here for 38 years, so if there are any specific details you'd like to know and Babelfish is confusing, I may be able to help--if it's there on the Cosina site, anyway.