daviwie
Member
I bought this Zorki 6 a little while ago and just shot my first roll of film and after waiting excitedly to pick the film up, I'm looking at the scans and feel nothing but utter disappointment. I have light leaks of some kind and I was hoping that the wonderful folks here at RFF might be able to help me out - you all have helped me with many other things Zorki-related before and after I created my account here, I'd like to think you'll be able to do it now, too.
Here are a few of the photos from the roll to help illustrate my point:
Imgur Album Link of the entire roll of film
http://i.imgur.com/WbNKP6d.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4XikqgG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/V4eYudH.jpg
The first photo is from the start of the roll (actually the second frame), the second photo is the 13th and the last photo is the 29th. The film is Ilford XP2 (ISO 400), so it's a 36 shot roll.
After seeing the photos, I got a bright flashlight, removed the lens and then shone it through the front and into the rear. When the shutter is wound or not wound, there are indeed some extremely small light leaks right in the very corners of the shutter assembly, but not anywhere that I can see it leaking into the film chamber. I also checked my negatives and where the images were properly exposed, there isn't any fringing along the edges.
I was told upon purchasing the Zorki 6, however, that it is necessary to crank the transport lever halfway, release and then crank it the rest of the way. This is supposedly to make the shutter more accurate? Not sure if this is true at all - from what I've read here and elsewhere, the Zorki 6 seems to play by an entirely different set of rules than the 4 or 5.
In any case, I cranked the shutter halfway and the shutter has what looks like some kind of divider. I honestly do not know how the shutter works in this camera, so please bear with me - this is my first rangefinder. Anyway, when I put the flashlight up this time with the shutter half-cranked, I can definitely see a leak between these two dividers.
I've also thrown a blanket over myself and the camera and did the flashlight trick again. There's a bit of a slight "haze" (not sure what else to call it) when the shutter is not wound that comes through the cloth and when I wind the shutter, the haze gets a bit brighter on the left side. I'm not sure if this is significant, though, or even if it's supposed to happen, because all of my pictures were exposed properly (more or less) aside from the bloody overexposed section on the left side of the images that also seems to (only in some!) to be rather symmetrically pulled across the frame. This is also an especially bright LED flashlight that I have, so maybe this is somewhat skewing things a bit.
Any insight that you all can offer would be greatly appreciated. Should any of you be in Vienna, Austria and can help me, I'll gladly show my gratitude by covering your tab.
Ninja edit: I hadn't realized the forum wouldn't automatically resize the images. I've removed the tags and only included links to the three. Apologies.
Here are a few of the photos from the roll to help illustrate my point:
Imgur Album Link of the entire roll of film
http://i.imgur.com/WbNKP6d.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4XikqgG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/V4eYudH.jpg
The first photo is from the start of the roll (actually the second frame), the second photo is the 13th and the last photo is the 29th. The film is Ilford XP2 (ISO 400), so it's a 36 shot roll.
After seeing the photos, I got a bright flashlight, removed the lens and then shone it through the front and into the rear. When the shutter is wound or not wound, there are indeed some extremely small light leaks right in the very corners of the shutter assembly, but not anywhere that I can see it leaking into the film chamber. I also checked my negatives and where the images were properly exposed, there isn't any fringing along the edges.
I was told upon purchasing the Zorki 6, however, that it is necessary to crank the transport lever halfway, release and then crank it the rest of the way. This is supposedly to make the shutter more accurate? Not sure if this is true at all - from what I've read here and elsewhere, the Zorki 6 seems to play by an entirely different set of rules than the 4 or 5.
In any case, I cranked the shutter halfway and the shutter has what looks like some kind of divider. I honestly do not know how the shutter works in this camera, so please bear with me - this is my first rangefinder. Anyway, when I put the flashlight up this time with the shutter half-cranked, I can definitely see a leak between these two dividers.
I've also thrown a blanket over myself and the camera and did the flashlight trick again. There's a bit of a slight "haze" (not sure what else to call it) when the shutter is not wound that comes through the cloth and when I wind the shutter, the haze gets a bit brighter on the left side. I'm not sure if this is significant, though, or even if it's supposed to happen, because all of my pictures were exposed properly (more or less) aside from the bloody overexposed section on the left side of the images that also seems to (only in some!) to be rather symmetrically pulled across the frame. This is also an especially bright LED flashlight that I have, so maybe this is somewhat skewing things a bit.
Any insight that you all can offer would be greatly appreciated. Should any of you be in Vienna, Austria and can help me, I'll gladly show my gratitude by covering your tab.
Ninja edit: I hadn't realized the forum wouldn't automatically resize the images. I've removed the tags and only included links to the three. Apologies.
Dez
Bodger Extraordinaire
The business about cranking halfway, releasing and then cranking again is total nonsense IMO.
You may have a light leak, but it seems more likely that your problem is a shutter that is gummed up and grossly overexposes the first third or so of the image.
Open the back, take off the lens, and do a test. Point the camera at an evenly illuminated wall and look through the film aperture at different shutter speeds while firing the shutter. Remember to wind the shutter ALL the way before changing shutter speeds. You should see a rectangle of light with the same brilliance from side to side, getting darker as you go to higher speeds. If it is uneven, or you can see the shutter curtains hanging up, you need a CLA, which is pretty straightforward with this camera.
From your description, it might also be that the two shutter curtains (which come together at the "divider" you mention) may be pulling slightly apart while winding the last bit of the frame. This is a bit more difficult to fix.
While you are doing this also check for pinholes: shine a very bright light into the front of the camera and look for leaks in the shutter curtain fabric with the shutter both wound and released. If you see any pinholes, you will need to fill them or get the shutter curtains replaced.
Cheers,
Dez
You may have a light leak, but it seems more likely that your problem is a shutter that is gummed up and grossly overexposes the first third or so of the image.
Open the back, take off the lens, and do a test. Point the camera at an evenly illuminated wall and look through the film aperture at different shutter speeds while firing the shutter. Remember to wind the shutter ALL the way before changing shutter speeds. You should see a rectangle of light with the same brilliance from side to side, getting darker as you go to higher speeds. If it is uneven, or you can see the shutter curtains hanging up, you need a CLA, which is pretty straightforward with this camera.
From your description, it might also be that the two shutter curtains (which come together at the "divider" you mention) may be pulling slightly apart while winding the last bit of the frame. This is a bit more difficult to fix.
While you are doing this also check for pinholes: shine a very bright light into the front of the camera and look for leaks in the shutter curtain fabric with the shutter both wound and released. If you see any pinholes, you will need to fill them or get the shutter curtains replaced.
Cheers,
Dez
daviwie
Member
I've just done the test you suggested (held it up in front of a lamp that has a shade around it) and everything looked just fine when firing the shutter.
Here's a video I made of the shutter while winding: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VWdpZuq-hQ
Hopefully YouTube processes it quickly enough and you can watch it in 1080p to get the full detail of the video. Does it look like it's winding properly or is this small movement between the shutter curtains not supposed to happen?
Here's a video I made of the shutter while winding: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VWdpZuq-hQ
Hopefully YouTube processes it quickly enough and you can watch it in 1080p to get the full detail of the video. Does it look like it's winding properly or is this small movement between the shutter curtains not supposed to happen?
Penny Lane
Hopelessly Citrophile
I agree with Dez. Most likely, the second curtain hangs at release and apparently sometimes halfway through its run. Judging from the amount of over-exposure, it should be pretty evident if you test it the way Dez describes.
As for pinholes, the pics show no evidence of those so that should not be a problem, but you can always easily check for them. Replacement curtains are likely most easily obtained out of a dead Zenit which uses the exact same shutter. I've harvested several sets out of Zenits that had died for various reasons... It is an advanced DIY project though as you can't work with a loose shutter crate; instead, the bottom drops out of the frame. Somehow I find that more of a hassle than just being able to hold everything in the shutter crate for assembly.
I strongly suspect though that a good CLA will work wonders. There's an excellent how-to over here.
By the way: an easy improvement to the Zorki-6 is replacing the pressure plate with a rectangular one out of a Zenit-E/B/EM etc.; I've found strange reflections on my negs once, turning out to be the imprint of the irregular-shaped original pressure plate. Part of that seems to have been shutter bounce which has been resolved, but the risk of these reflections occurring drops with the more modern pressure plate with far better coverage and arguably better film flatness. The pressure plate is simply hooked in by its spring; they exchange without any problem.
I hope you'll have fun with your Zorki-6 in the near future!
Cheers,
Derk
As for pinholes, the pics show no evidence of those so that should not be a problem, but you can always easily check for them. Replacement curtains are likely most easily obtained out of a dead Zenit which uses the exact same shutter. I've harvested several sets out of Zenits that had died for various reasons... It is an advanced DIY project though as you can't work with a loose shutter crate; instead, the bottom drops out of the frame. Somehow I find that more of a hassle than just being able to hold everything in the shutter crate for assembly.
I strongly suspect though that a good CLA will work wonders. There's an excellent how-to over here.
By the way: an easy improvement to the Zorki-6 is replacing the pressure plate with a rectangular one out of a Zenit-E/B/EM etc.; I've found strange reflections on my negs once, turning out to be the imprint of the irregular-shaped original pressure plate. Part of that seems to have been shutter bounce which has been resolved, but the risk of these reflections occurring drops with the more modern pressure plate with far better coverage and arguably better film flatness. The pressure plate is simply hooked in by its spring; they exchange without any problem.
I hope you'll have fun with your Zorki-6 in the near future!
Cheers,
Derk
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daviwie
Member
Any idea if that video sheds some light on the situation?
Penny Lane
Hopelessly Citrophile
Very little to me, sorry. All I can say is that winding on looks perfectly normal, but due to the angled view I can't really make out what the second curtain does (which to me is the most likely suspect).
The side I can see from this angle looks pretty normal, but it would: your photos show that the last 2/3 of the frame to be exposed get exposed more or less normal. That doesn't mean that the second curtain doesn't 'hang' on release though, which is what the effect in your photos very much looks like.
It can take some close observation to see what really goes on. Use a good light source; an old CRT-screen would be ideal to see what the shutter curtains really do (see this article by Rick Oleson).
If you still suspect that light leaks are the culprit, then shoot some colour negative film. That will at least show clearly if the light comes from in front or behind the film, thus giving us clues as to where to start looking.
The Zorki-6 is not a very complicated machine, so at least I'm sure that with all the knowledge on this forum we'll be able to get to a diagnosis
Cheers,
Derk
The side I can see from this angle looks pretty normal, but it would: your photos show that the last 2/3 of the frame to be exposed get exposed more or less normal. That doesn't mean that the second curtain doesn't 'hang' on release though, which is what the effect in your photos very much looks like.
It can take some close observation to see what really goes on. Use a good light source; an old CRT-screen would be ideal to see what the shutter curtains really do (see this article by Rick Oleson).
If you still suspect that light leaks are the culprit, then shoot some colour negative film. That will at least show clearly if the light comes from in front or behind the film, thus giving us clues as to where to start looking.
The Zorki-6 is not a very complicated machine, so at least I'm sure that with all the knowledge on this forum we'll be able to get to a diagnosis
Cheers,
Derk
Dez
Bodger Extraordinaire
The second curtain can be seen in the video to gradually come forward toward the first curtain while winding, which is the expected behaviour.
The overexposure is very severe, so I am surprised you did not see any unevenness when firing the shutter. Put the camera in your refrigerator for an hour and try that test again. If things are gummied up, low temperature is most likely to make it obvious.
Cheers,
Dez
The overexposure is very severe, so I am surprised you did not see any unevenness when firing the shutter. Put the camera in your refrigerator for an hour and try that test again. If things are gummied up, low temperature is most likely to make it obvious.
Cheers,
Dez
julio1fer
Well-known
+1 to what has been said. This looks definitely like a shutter problem, maybe curtain hanging up severely or curtains separating during winding. In any case a CLA is recommended. Old cameras need service, and that's that. Maybe the curtain needs replacement.
The Z-6 is a tough, well designed camera. It needs no vodoo handling, that two-stage wind is utter nonsense.
The Z-6 is a tough, well designed camera. It needs no vodoo handling, that two-stage wind is utter nonsense.
daviwie
Member
OK, I'll stick it in the fridge when I get home from work this afternoon and give it another shot. Worst comes to worse, I'll take it to a shop and have it serviced (hopefully that won't cost too much...). I would love to do it myself but after buying all the tools and materials I can just pay to have it serviced.
locheeboy
locheeboy
In response tae others who have rubbished this method - it's not rubbish. Both Zorki and Zenit recommend this method, and ah've been using it since 1972 when ah got my first Zenit camera. Where yer going wrong is in releasing the winder lever halfway. If ye wind on halfway then release, the shutter is left partially transferred. If ye then wind on fully, the shutter will again be in the wrong position, either partially open or left hanging.
Ye should wind on around 2/3 of the way, then, keeping yer thumb on the lever, release back about half that distance then wind on again 'til ye feel resistance at full wind, then ye release the lever. Ye can even do it 2/3 times. This ensures that the shutter has fully transferred. Old FSU cameras can "stretch" the winder with age and use, so that it doesn't fully transfer the shutter.
This becomes second nature and do it at speed, not slowly and deliberately.
What yer photos show is a shutter problem, it could be curtains hanging or separating(as said above0 but ah think it may be
self-inflicted with incorrect winding .
wolves3012
Veteran
Have to disagree with locheeboy and agree with the others. Either the shutter is wound fully or it isn't. It matters not whether you achieve that in one full stroke or two partial ones. Provided you wind until there's an obvious stop then the shutter is wound properly, end of story. If you fail to wind it fully, then generally there will be no exposure - both curtains release together and the second one doesn't get held up as it should be, so they travel with no slit. Just a thought - you are using the proper release button aren't you? It's not unknown for people to think the button next to the speed dial is the shutter release, rather than the correct one in the middle of the wind-lever/frame-counter dial.
As an aside, it's perfectly safe to change shutter speeds on the Zorki 6 before cocking, if you want to. Just don't try to go past the stop-pin between B and 1/500, in either direction. Probably a bad habit if you own other FSUs though, since some models are likely to be damaged unless cocked first.
The pictures you have show fairly consistent gross overexposure on the left, which means the right of the camera film-frame. Could be caused by either of the curtains but for sure one of them, if not both, is not running correctly. Needs a CLA and the curtain tensions setting correctly, without any doubt whatever.
It's also fairly obvious that most of your frames are out of focus. Either you aren't using the RF properly or it, too, is well out of adjustment. If it's your first RF and you aren't too familiar with it, that could explain things. The RF on a Zorki 6 is a wide-baselength and quite accurate if properly calibrated.
As an aside, it's perfectly safe to change shutter speeds on the Zorki 6 before cocking, if you want to. Just don't try to go past the stop-pin between B and 1/500, in either direction. Probably a bad habit if you own other FSUs though, since some models are likely to be damaged unless cocked first.
The pictures you have show fairly consistent gross overexposure on the left, which means the right of the camera film-frame. Could be caused by either of the curtains but for sure one of them, if not both, is not running correctly. Needs a CLA and the curtain tensions setting correctly, without any doubt whatever.
It's also fairly obvious that most of your frames are out of focus. Either you aren't using the RF properly or it, too, is well out of adjustment. If it's your first RF and you aren't too familiar with it, that could explain things. The RF on a Zorki 6 is a wide-baselength and quite accurate if properly calibrated.
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daviwie
Member
Yeah, I think I am going to take it by the shop tomorrow or Friday and see if they can't help me out. I am definitely using the RF correctly, but I think it might be off, too. Guess I'll have the shop adjust that, too (I seriously don't have much in the way of tools in my apartment! I can build a closet or shelves but nothing for fine work).
The guy I bought it from on eBay said everything worked perfectly for him but I guess something got knocked out of place during shipping. Ah well. I'll be sure to keep all of you posted.
The guy I bought it from on eBay said everything worked perfectly for him but I guess something got knocked out of place during shipping. Ah well. I'll be sure to keep all of you posted.
wolves3012
Veteran
You may find the cost of repairs from a shop to be more than you're willing to pay I'm afraid - hopefully not though. The "it worked ok last time" story is a common one on Ebay. Yes, the RF might have got knocked out in transit but it usually takes a fair whack to the FSUs and the shutter didn't get gummed up in transit. Sounds like a cop-out.
Dez
Bodger Extraordinaire
Agreed. Unless the cost of shipment is excessive, you should consider sending it back for a refund.
Cheers,
Dez
Cheers,
Dez
Ron (Netherlands)
Well-known
overexposure can be caused by using a faulty light meter: how did you measure the light?
to check whether the rangefinder is out of alignment: focus at a far distinct object and make sure your lens is set at infinity: check whether the rangefinder is accordance with the position of the lens at infinity. If not, your rangefinder is not aligned well horizontally.
to check whether the rangefinder is out of alignment: focus at a far distinct object and make sure your lens is set at infinity: check whether the rangefinder is accordance with the position of the lens at infinity. If not, your rangefinder is not aligned well horizontally.
reagan
hey, they're only Zorkis
Hope you're not discouraged. All old Zorkis need a little work. We all do it. Agreeing with others, I don't see any sign off light leaks or pinholes. If that rings true, shutter should only need adjusted, not replaced. That's good. And if the RF is off, adjustment is not a major deal either. So hopefully a decent repair guy won't gouge you and a little more investment could produce a good solid shooter you could enjoy for some time - IMHO. The pic you posted of the camera looks pretty good cosmetically and once in order I think you'll enjoy it.
daviwie
Member
The only thing I can say to that is that he showed me images he claims were shot with the camera after the fact, so I don't know. There was also nothing said with regards to the last time the camera was used. But the email contact was quite good and he came across as very trustworthy. Ah well - I got the body for only €30 and the lens for €30 (the lens it came with was horribly gummed up), so I'm still not too deep into it seeing as I've seen older Zorkis go for more and finding a Zorki 6 in Europe is hard enough.
With regards to the cost of servicing: I would agree with you, but I simply lack the tools and having to buy every little thing would take time and money. Personally, I don't really have the time either, and would much rather just pay someone to fix the problem for me...
Can't - private sale, no refunds.
I'm using this app for my Nexus 4. There's a free version, too. I tested the free version against my Nikon D5100 and they metered the same in varying light situations.
At first I was really angry and was considering selling the entire camera and going back to my Konica SLR and my Nikon D5100 but after I calmed down and gave it some thought I changed my mind. I at least want to get a quote and see if I can afford to have the fix done now or just get it done later. I won't be able to shoot with the camera once winter rolls around since it will simply be too cold to walk around without gloves, so either I fix it now and enjoy one or two more rolls in it before summer ends or I wait until spring 2014. Either way, the camera looks badass behind the glass doors in my living room shelving unit with all my other old cameras.
And thanks for the compliments! I was really impressed by how good the camera simply looked when it arrived I figured the rest would be in tip-top but apparently not. In any case, I'll have it taken by the local Leica Shop and let them take a gander at it.
daviwie
Member
So I swung by the Leica Shop here in Vienna today and spoke to someone there and a CLA would run me €200. Not exactly in my budget by any stretch of the imagination and that's 3x what I have in the camera itself. That being said, I also heard from another Leica owner (and this was confirmed by the Leica Shop) that sometimes just firing the shutter several times (sitting in front of the TV to watch a movie or two and winding and firing the shutter the entire time) is enough to loosen things back up if the camera has been sitting for a while. Furthermore, even Leica does not guarantee the accuracy of their cloth shutters at 1/1000 on cameras of this age, even if they have been restored. I was told that if I kept the shutter slower than 1/250 (1/125 should be a nice sweet spot, though) and just compensated with the aperture then I should be better off. Unfortunately since this entire roll was shot at 1/500, I have no way of knowing without testing.
Here's what I am going to do:
1) Adjust the rangefinder
2) Watch the first half of Breaking Bad Season 5 over the weekend and fire the shutter the entire time I'm doing so.
3) Run a roll of film through it during my upcoming trip to Berlin
I'll report back with what happens.
Here's what I am going to do:
1) Adjust the rangefinder
2) Watch the first half of Breaking Bad Season 5 over the weekend and fire the shutter the entire time I'm doing so.
3) Run a roll of film through it during my upcoming trip to Berlin
I'll report back with what happens.
locheeboy
locheeboy
Hi Daviwie,
If yer plan fails,
contact Oleg Khalyavin,
OK Photocameras
US $55 +$10-20 for return postage - Full CLA. Mail him, send a couple of photos and explain yer problems. He'll give you a quote if it's outside the CLA. Had 2 cameras done by him and on one, he replaced the shutters /ribbons and winder under the CLA price.
He's well-known and recommended on many sites,
If yer plan fails,
contact Oleg Khalyavin,
OK Photocameras
US $55 +$10-20 for return postage - Full CLA. Mail him, send a couple of photos and explain yer problems. He'll give you a quote if it's outside the CLA. Had 2 cameras done by him and on one, he replaced the shutters /ribbons and winder under the CLA price.
He's well-known and recommended on many sites,
daviwie
Member
Thanks for the tip, I'll be sure to keep that in mind. The exchange rate makes that price palatable.Hi Daviwie,
If yer plan fails,
contact Oleg Khalyavin,
OK Photocameras
US $55 +$10-20 for return postage - Full CLA. Mail him, send a couple of photos and explain yer problems. He'll give you a quote if it's outside the CLA. Had 2 cameras done by him and on one, he replaced the shutters /ribbons and winder under the CLA price.
He's well-known and recommended on many sites,