JFH
Established
John;
Some of your observations above could be chalked up to just getting used to a new system, as I'm sure you realize. And some of them may be significant enough that they lead you to discard the R3 in favor of an SLR.. But permit me to expound on the following:
First, your choice of lenses, particularly the collapsible Heliar, adds the element of "hard to control" that you mentioned. I would strongly suggest getting something like the 40 / 1.4 Nokton before giving up all together.
Second, since you indicate that speed was one of your criteria, I would submit that the all-manual R3M probably wasn't your best choice. I've used the R3A... aperture priority.. and found that this seems to enhance speed considerably. It selects the shutter speed after you select the aperture. By judiciously selecting for anticipated conditions, it becomes quite usable and fast, and it can be used in "manual" mode as well, although the shutter is still battery dependent. For action shots, you learn to "pre- focus" and so forth. Most of the wider angle lenses allow considerable latitude for this.
Although several here will tout the advantages of an all- manual camera... creative control, no need to "find" batteries in uncertain foreign markets, ability to still use the camera if battery fails, etc., etc., the R3A isn't exactly a vampire on batteries to begin with, so a couple of spare sets should see you through a year or so in "battery not available" areas.
As far as seeing the LED display in the viewfinder, especially in bright light, I've found that the little trick of extending your left index finger in front of the viewfinder momentarily after doing the shutter half- press (leaves the display on for 10 seconds) allows much easier reading of the display. Over the time I've had mine, this has become second nature.
I presume you haven't finished the first roll of film yet... give it a chance. I've found that the modern lenses, films, etc have given me outstanding (for me) quality images in the situations where one "usually" uses a rangefinder, and that this often exceeds what I'm able to achieve with my older Minlota SLR system. You might want to consider trading into an R3A as above before giving up all together.
You may yet be pleasantly surprised...
JFH
Some of your observations above could be chalked up to just getting used to a new system, as I'm sure you realize. And some of them may be significant enough that they lead you to discard the R3 in favor of an SLR.. But permit me to expound on the following:
First, your choice of lenses, particularly the collapsible Heliar, adds the element of "hard to control" that you mentioned. I would strongly suggest getting something like the 40 / 1.4 Nokton before giving up all together.
Second, since you indicate that speed was one of your criteria, I would submit that the all-manual R3M probably wasn't your best choice. I've used the R3A... aperture priority.. and found that this seems to enhance speed considerably. It selects the shutter speed after you select the aperture. By judiciously selecting for anticipated conditions, it becomes quite usable and fast, and it can be used in "manual" mode as well, although the shutter is still battery dependent. For action shots, you learn to "pre- focus" and so forth. Most of the wider angle lenses allow considerable latitude for this.
Although several here will tout the advantages of an all- manual camera... creative control, no need to "find" batteries in uncertain foreign markets, ability to still use the camera if battery fails, etc., etc., the R3A isn't exactly a vampire on batteries to begin with, so a couple of spare sets should see you through a year or so in "battery not available" areas.
As far as seeing the LED display in the viewfinder, especially in bright light, I've found that the little trick of extending your left index finger in front of the viewfinder momentarily after doing the shutter half- press (leaves the display on for 10 seconds) allows much easier reading of the display. Over the time I've had mine, this has become second nature.
I presume you haven't finished the first roll of film yet... give it a chance. I've found that the modern lenses, films, etc have given me outstanding (for me) quality images in the situations where one "usually" uses a rangefinder, and that this often exceeds what I'm able to achieve with my older Minlota SLR system. You might want to consider trading into an R3A as above before giving up all together.
You may yet be pleasantly surprised...
JFH
sv1cec
Member
Hey buddy, glad you came back to me.
Oh the R3M was definitely a poor choice on my behalf, or at least the 25th Anniversary one. Due to my limited experience and the narrow time frame in which I had to decide, I didn't had the luxury of serious thinking. I wanted a Leica-like camera to experiment with it, and the Voigt looked (and I still believe it is) the right one.
If I had the time to ask for opinions (like in here for example) and make up my mind, I would have got the R4M with a 28mm lens. Of course, the R4A would have been a better choice, for some work, and I am not the kind of photographer that gets scared of batteries, I was never left without battery juice in my life, and all my cameras depended on batteries.
But now I am stuck with it. So the only alternative is either to get used to it and live with it, but use it for different shooting than I initially planed, or to sell it and move along. The problem is that I am not sure how many people would be interested in such a camera here.
As you know, I also investigated the possibility of using the R3M with a 35mm lens. At this moment, I honestly do not know. I mean I am not sure at all I want to invest another 500$ in this camera.
I'll use it for a while to see if I can get used to its idiosynchrasies. If I get used to it, then I'll keep it. If not, I'll probably sell it (if I can find a buyer locally) and use the money for something else.
For the time being, I am sending Stephen some money for a soft release, and a -3 diopter lens, the one that he send me got lost by my relatives.
Oh the R3M was definitely a poor choice on my behalf, or at least the 25th Anniversary one. Due to my limited experience and the narrow time frame in which I had to decide, I didn't had the luxury of serious thinking. I wanted a Leica-like camera to experiment with it, and the Voigt looked (and I still believe it is) the right one.
If I had the time to ask for opinions (like in here for example) and make up my mind, I would have got the R4M with a 28mm lens. Of course, the R4A would have been a better choice, for some work, and I am not the kind of photographer that gets scared of batteries, I was never left without battery juice in my life, and all my cameras depended on batteries.
But now I am stuck with it. So the only alternative is either to get used to it and live with it, but use it for different shooting than I initially planed, or to sell it and move along. The problem is that I am not sure how many people would be interested in such a camera here.
As you know, I also investigated the possibility of using the R3M with a 35mm lens. At this moment, I honestly do not know. I mean I am not sure at all I want to invest another 500$ in this camera.
I'll use it for a while to see if I can get used to its idiosynchrasies. If I get used to it, then I'll keep it. If not, I'll probably sell it (if I can find a buyer locally) and use the money for something else.
For the time being, I am sending Stephen some money for a soft release, and a -3 diopter lens, the one that he send me got lost by my relatives.
Al Kaplan
Veteran
Triangle shaped neck strap attachment "rings" are a fairly modern invention. For decades Leica marketed a neck leather strap with a rubber non-skid shoulder pad and ROUND SPLIT RINGS! Other companies used round ones as well. I have Nikon straps with round rings. There's nothing wrong with round ones, and they're easier to install.
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JFH
Established
Also, John.... maybe you will look at this experience as an opportunity to become a "better" photographer (whatever that means), learn your way around a few new pieces of equipment, and compensate for their differences from what you're used to.
In my own case, as you can see from my signature line, I have done a good bit with d***tal equipment. Or at least I have a good bit of equipment. what I've actually done with it is subject to discussion.. but this almost amounted to "instant" photography after a while. I know there will be howls of disagreement here, but I found that d***tal was maybe tending to trivialize my photographic efforts. Instead of concentrating on one or two "good" shots, I was shotgunning all over the place and then sorting through dozens of pics looking for a good one or two.
Going back to film, and RF in particular, has caused me to slow down, take a more critical look at things, and pay attention again to the basics. I shoot fewer frames with film, but in some ways I find the results (maybe one or two keepers per roll) a bit more satisfying. I may go back more than once to a particular location, for example and try it with different light.. instead of working away in photoshop to get results. It's hard to describe, but I find myself anticipating getting a roll back from processing and particularly wondering how a "certain" shot or two worked out. Kind of an old- timey feeling... "Someday my prints will come... la la la...
"
In my own case, as you can see from my signature line, I have done a good bit with d***tal equipment. Or at least I have a good bit of equipment. what I've actually done with it is subject to discussion.. but this almost amounted to "instant" photography after a while. I know there will be howls of disagreement here, but I found that d***tal was maybe tending to trivialize my photographic efforts. Instead of concentrating on one or two "good" shots, I was shotgunning all over the place and then sorting through dozens of pics looking for a good one or two.
Going back to film, and RF in particular, has caused me to slow down, take a more critical look at things, and pay attention again to the basics. I shoot fewer frames with film, but in some ways I find the results (maybe one or two keepers per roll) a bit more satisfying. I may go back more than once to a particular location, for example and try it with different light.. instead of working away in photoshop to get results. It's hard to describe, but I find myself anticipating getting a roll back from processing and particularly wondering how a "certain" shot or two worked out. Kind of an old- timey feeling... "Someday my prints will come... la la la...
"lngu81
Established
As you mentioned earlier, the anologue bug kicked in with you. I think you make an excellent choice by purchased the R3M than your preferable R4M/A. Considered that you will have a new approach with the 35mm and above lens on a R3M, getting away from the norm of digital and your comfort zone ( which is wide angle lens on R4M/A).
BTW I do use R3M with Nokton 35mm f1.2 and Nokton 50mm f1.5, I have no problem with 35mm on R3M without external viewfinder
BTW I do use R3M with Nokton 35mm f1.2 and Nokton 50mm f1.5, I have no problem with 35mm on R3M without external viewfinder
zenlibra
Crazy Leica Fox
I just want to add something about the 40mm f/1.4 Nokton lens. It is not collapsible but it is quite small.
sv1cec
Member
Al Kaplan said:
I understand and thanks for your note. This is a very minor thing, but due to my past experience, it was something I noted as being "cheap". Nothing wrong with the round rings, I understand that, but hey, they look funny on a $1,000 camera.
JFH said:Going back to film, and RF in particular, has caused me to slow down, take a more critical look at things, and pay attention again to the basics. I shoot fewer frames with film, but in some ways I find the results (maybe one or two keepers per roll) a bit more satisfying. I may go back more than once to a particular location, for example and try it with different light.. instead of working away in photoshop to get results. It's hard to describe, but I find myself anticipating getting a roll back from processing and particularly wondering how a "certain" shot or two worked out. Kind of an old- timey feeling... "Someday my prints will come... la la la...
I guess that's what I am hoping too. To slow down and be more artistic than I've been lately. And maybe, just maybe, the R3M will help me on this.
lngu81 said:
Thanks, that's what I wanted to hear (read)!!!
zenlibra said:
I do not mind the size of the 50mm. My issue (not really an issue) is the way the lens looks when extended. As you understand, I am not stupid enough to dismiss a lens, just because it looks ugly or funny, when locked extended. So please do not take my previous note seriously, it's just that the silver tube is insulting to my aesthetics (some may question them, but that's how I see things). I hope that the lens is as good as they say it is.
As for my other problem (not being able to see the viewfinder easily), I believe things will be much better with a -3 diopter eyepiece correction lens. With it, I'll be able to use the camera without my glasses on, so I am sure that this little gizmo will solve that problem.
As I said, the camera looks very solid and very well build, I do not want my notes here to appear as if I am bashing Voigtlaender, I am not. My issues arise mainly from my past experience and my wrong approach to what a rangefinder camera is and how it can be used. These are not ineherent problems of the camera, but of the .... user.
Caution here! This seems to be an individual matter, fine for some users and not for others. I think it may be a matter of facial shape. Some folks have a hard time seeing even the full 40mm framelines on the R3.... withOUT glasses. For them the R3A/M is a fine choice with 50mm and longer lenses. You'll want to check for yourself, preferably before committing to a purchase!
One of the benefits of rangefinder viewing is the ability to see outside the frame, an aid to composition. Since the R3 has a 1:1 viewfinder, it's often possible to "see around the frame" by keeping both eyes open. Doesn't work so well for some, including left-eyed shooters, but it's a big plus for others.
But I still would be wary of using a 35mm lens on a camera with such viewfinder-filling 40mm framelines.
sv1cec
Member
Doug, that cat is gorgeous, I love it more and more, every time I see your avatar. Our cat is pregnant, we expect the kittens soon.
I got you on the 35mm and the viewfinder.
As I said, I am sticking with the 50mm for the time being. I'll shoot a few films to see what I can get out of it. For the time being, it certainly makes me think and consider my pictures more. If it grows on me, I'll keep the R3M, if not, I'll try and sell it and invest the money on Nikkor lenses.
I got you on the 35mm and the viewfinder.
As I said, I am sticking with the 50mm for the time being. I'll shoot a few films to see what I can get out of it. For the time being, it certainly makes me think and consider my pictures more. If it grows on me, I'll keep the R3M, if not, I'll try and sell it and invest the money on Nikkor lenses.
John, the R3A/M may or may not meet all your needs, but it's worth keeping mind that the R4A/M makes a great companion for it! That one has a .52x finder magnification with framelines from 21mm to 50mm, unique in the market and so welcome for wide angle lenses. Paired, the R3 and R4 are a most versatile team. Just something to consider for future GAS attacks!
Ruff would appreciate your admiration; he knows he's magnificent. He's now adult, long-legged and lean, very smart, and very dedicated to my wife. She calls him Ruffles, but in any case the name arises from his neck ruff, not any similarity to Dennis the Menace's dog Ruff. We'll envy you the fun of kittens...
Ruff would appreciate your admiration; he knows he's magnificent.
He's now adult, long-legged and lean, very smart, and very dedicated to my wife. She calls him Ruffles, but in any case the name arises from his neck ruff, not any similarity to Dennis the Menace's dog Ruff. We'll envy you the fun of kittens...
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sv1cec
Member
Unless this camera starts growing on me, I do not think I'll invest more in Voigt. Except perhaps this:
Voigtlander 20/3.5 Color Skopar SL II Aspherical but with a Nikon mount at the rear. The wide-angle I was looking for, for my new Nikon F2!!!!
Ruff would appreciate your admiration; he knows he's magnificent.
Say hello to Ruff from Rita.
And from Wolf.
sv1cec
Member
OK folks, I tried to use the R3M to take some pictures of my dog today. I am still not used to it, I mix up the aperture ring with the lens locking ring in front of it, and I always first try to change the aperture, using the focusing ring! And I had a hard time seeing the LEDs in the finder, even though I was not wearing my glasses (I now have a Nikon -3 diopter eyepiece correction lens on it). It took me about 4 minutes to take two pictures..... , even the dog got tired and wanted to leave. Definitely not the camera for quick moving things, like kids and pets.
One more thing that I find distracting is that the rangefinder image, doesn't exactly coincide, in the vertical axis with the rest of the image, it is a little further up than it should be. I remember reading somewhere about how to adjust that, but I need to find the article again. If someone has a link, I would appreciate it.
, even the dog got tired and wanted to leave. Definitely not the camera for quick moving things, like kids and pets.One more thing that I find distracting is that the rangefinder image, doesn't exactly coincide, in the vertical axis with the rest of the image, it is a little further up than it should be. I remember reading somewhere about how to adjust that, but I need to find the article again. If someone has a link, I would appreciate it.
sv1cec
Member
I am happy, I just won myself a 35mm lens on eBay.
Let's see what I'll do with this camera.
Let's see what I'll do with this camera.
sv1cec
Member
All of a sudden I feel lonely here.
Anyone of you guys has any experience with the Leica Elmar 1:4/90mm? Opinions, criticism are welcome.
Anyone of you guys has any experience with the Leica Elmar 1:4/90mm? Opinions, criticism are welcome.
JFH
Established
John: Good move on buying the 35mm. I tend to gravitate toward the 35 as an all around lens myself. If I had to have just one, it would probably be a 35mm, and I think from reading this forum that many here would agree.
Don't try to be too critical about framing shots with the lines in the viewfinder. They tend to be just approximate anyway. You can crop a bit later on if that's what you want to do. I think just about all rangefinders tend to be this way, it's just the nature of the beast, from what I hear.
If you're referring to the fact that the rangefinder patch seems to be high of center in the frame lines, this is the way it's supposed to be too. It will rise and fall as you change focus, being best centered at infinity.
Although I don't have the 90 f4 Elmar, I've got an old Rokkor f4 which looks very similar to the Elmar. Mine's the newer Japanese CLE version. Very sharp, color rendition is excellent, and slow to use. It was priced in the same range as the used Elmars, so I'd think it's fairly similar. No problem seeing the frame lines in the R3A viewfinder, though. Even with the 1:1 viewfinder, the frame gets a bit small for 90mm. I've just begun using it. It may be a bit long for portraits (many prefer 75mm) but I've gotten some satisfactory results with it and am going to keep it in my kit.
Don't try to be too critical about framing shots with the lines in the viewfinder. They tend to be just approximate anyway. You can crop a bit later on if that's what you want to do. I think just about all rangefinders tend to be this way, it's just the nature of the beast, from what I hear.
If you're referring to the fact that the rangefinder patch seems to be high of center in the frame lines, this is the way it's supposed to be too. It will rise and fall as you change focus, being best centered at infinity.
Although I don't have the 90 f4 Elmar, I've got an old Rokkor f4 which looks very similar to the Elmar. Mine's the newer Japanese CLE version. Very sharp, color rendition is excellent, and slow to use. It was priced in the same range as the used Elmars, so I'd think it's fairly similar. No problem seeing the frame lines in the R3A viewfinder, though. Even with the 1:1 viewfinder, the frame gets a bit small for 90mm. I've just begun using it. It may be a bit long for portraits (many prefer 75mm) but I've gotten some satisfactory results with it and am going to keep it in my kit.
JFH
Established
John: Here's a link to instructions for adjusting the vertical RF patch alignment in the R2 / R3. Note that this won't change the patch's position in the VF, but it will allow you to make the two segments of the RF patch coincide vertically when focused.
A tip here is when you're removing the hotshoe cover and prying up on the springy part, use a very small piece of scotch tape to cover the point where your screwdriver blade contacts the painted surface of the body as a fulcrum. Otherwise, you'll leave marks and it'll look like "Bubba" worked on it. (You know what I mean from your experience with firearms.)
http://www.cosina-voigtlander.com/content/view/58/82/
Please note that I'm not a camera repairman nor do I claim to be. I used these instructions once and was lucky I guess... Ordinarily I would recommend just sending the in- warranty camera to Stephen, but considering your location and the logistics involved, well... be cautioned anyway. Doing this will probably void your warranty...
A tip here is when you're removing the hotshoe cover and prying up on the springy part, use a very small piece of scotch tape to cover the point where your screwdriver blade contacts the painted surface of the body as a fulcrum. Otherwise, you'll leave marks and it'll look like "Bubba" worked on it. (You know what I mean from your experience with firearms.)
http://www.cosina-voigtlander.com/content/view/58/82/
Please note that I'm not a camera repairman nor do I claim to be. I used these instructions once and was lucky I guess... Ordinarily I would recommend just sending the in- warranty camera to Stephen, but considering your location and the logistics involved, well... be cautioned anyway. Doing this will probably void your warranty...
sv1cec
Member
JFH, good to hear from you again.
I've understood that framing is not / can not be critical with the RF cameras, but I just discovered that my scanner can scan films and slides, so that is not a big deal. I can always crop the picture in the computer, so all is well there.
As for the problem with the rangefinder, what I mean is that the two images of the rangefinder, never coincide in the vertical axis. You bring them together on the horizontal axis by focusing the lens, but they do not match in the vertical axis, they are always off by a small margin. So I guess your link should provide instructions on how to fix that, I'll check it out tomorrow morning when the kids are at school, now it's like a zoo here.
I assure you I'll use some non-marring screwdriver or maybe a credit card when prying the hotshoe, I hate ... Bubba work on my cameras.
As for the 90mm Elmar, I have a chance to buy one at a good price (I think that $260 is a good price) so maybe I'll go for it. The only question is, what will I do with all this equipment if I can't get used to the way the camera works? But I guess that's the $1,000,000 question that no one can answer.
Thanks again for your help buddy.
I've understood that framing is not / can not be critical with the RF cameras, but I just discovered that my scanner can scan films and slides, so that is not a big deal. I can always crop the picture in the computer, so all is well there.
As for the problem with the rangefinder, what I mean is that the two images of the rangefinder, never coincide in the vertical axis. You bring them together on the horizontal axis by focusing the lens, but they do not match in the vertical axis, they are always off by a small margin. So I guess your link should provide instructions on how to fix that, I'll check it out tomorrow morning when the kids are at school, now it's like a zoo here.
I assure you I'll use some non-marring screwdriver or maybe a credit card when prying the hotshoe, I hate ... Bubba work on my cameras.
As for the 90mm Elmar, I have a chance to buy one at a good price (I think that $260 is a good price) so maybe I'll go for it. The only question is, what will I do with all this equipment if I can't get used to the way the camera works? But I guess that's the $1,000,000 question that no one can answer.
Thanks again for your help buddy.
sv1cec
Member
OK, I got the 90mm lens too. Just wish me luck.