thinkfloyd
Flippy Nose
I'm a 35mm film and digital user and have decided to go MF. I'd like a Hassy for the 6x6 format, but it's too expensive (and bulky) for me, so I decided to go with a 6x6 folder... which do you think should I go for?
- A Mess Ikonta 6x6 with Novar lens? (uncoupled rangefinder, no light meter) or...
- A Franka Solida IIL with Xenar Lens? (no rangefinder, with uncoupled light meter)
These two fit my budget, otherwise I'd be going for the Super Ikonta IV... I don't mind the choice between having a rangefinder or light meter. Either/or, I can always purchase a separate rangefinder accessory or lightmeter anyway... I'm leaning toward the Franka for the Xenar lens (but a Zeiss is a Zeiss), still, I'd like to get the opinion of those in-the-know.
Thanks guys!
- A Mess Ikonta 6x6 with Novar lens? (uncoupled rangefinder, no light meter) or...
- A Franka Solida IIL with Xenar Lens? (no rangefinder, with uncoupled light meter)
These two fit my budget, otherwise I'd be going for the Super Ikonta IV... I don't mind the choice between having a rangefinder or light meter. Either/or, I can always purchase a separate rangefinder accessory or lightmeter anyway... I'm leaning toward the Franka for the Xenar lens (but a Zeiss is a Zeiss), still, I'd like to get the opinion of those in-the-know.
Thanks guys!
sahe69
Well-known
I'm afraid I don't have experience on the above folders, but check out also the Voigtländer Perkeo I and II if you don't need a built in rangefinder of lightmeter.
Anyway, having a coupled RF in a folder really does make life easier, especially if you intend to shoot at large apertures.
Anyway, having a coupled RF in a folder really does make life easier, especially if you intend to shoot at large apertures.
thinkfloyd
Flippy Nose
I looked into the Perkeos I and II, but my worry is how to focus, never having used a rangefinder before, what more for cameras without one? At least if one or the other is built-in, that's one less accessory to lug around...
Which begs the question, how does one focus without a rangefinder? If it's simple enough, I might go for the Perkeo and just purchase a L-208 twinmaster...
Coupled rangefinders are way out of my budget!
Which begs the question, how does one focus without a rangefinder? If it's simple enough, I might go for the Perkeo and just purchase a L-208 twinmaster...
Coupled rangefinders are way out of my budget!
fidget
Lemon magnet
I love folders too, but they can bring a few problems. The general folder is nowhere near comparable to a Hassy.
If budget is an issue (as it always is!) I would recommend a nice TLR to start with. I believe that you will have a much more satisfying start to your MF experience than you could with a folder.
You could always buy a few folders later.....start a collection.
Dave
If budget is an issue (as it always is!) I would recommend a nice TLR to start with. I believe that you will have a much more satisfying start to your MF experience than you could with a folder.
You could always buy a few folders later.....start a collection.
Dave
thinkfloyd
Flippy Nose
I tried a Mamiya RB67 about 4 months ago, but I only shot half a roll with it (that was about 4 months ago). I found it too bulky. Same with a Yashica TLR (forgot exact model). Now I decided to get my own MF camera, I wanted a Hassy, but price and size made me think twice. I want a 6x6 MF camera that I can bring anywhere, everyday... hence my desire to buy a folder. I know it can't compare to a Hassy, but seeing the images posted here, I see that it works well enough... I'm only a hobbyist when it comes to film, so a folder is good enough for me... (being a rangefinder is a plus, having never tried an RF camera.)
I hope I made sense...
I hope I made sense...
fidget
Lemon magnet
Ah! You have experience, in carrying the things too!
I know what you mean...
For those days when I'm on an outing, most times, unless I know that there will be a good B&W subject, I take the DSLR (this replaced almost all my 35mm gear). I don't want to carry my larger MF gear too, so am trying MF folders as a possible means to get that great film B&W shot whilst being very portable.
RF folders do go for a higher price. For me, I use the MF for fairly static scenes and don't need to focus quickly. A handheld or accessory rangefinder is good and probably only useful when the subject is closer than say 3m.
My suggestion is to look out for a tessar style lens on a quality non-rf folder.
My favourites at the moment are the very affordable Agfa Isolette with Solinar lens and any Ensign with Ross lens. Great fun to use and will fit into your pocket.
Oh, and welcome to RRF!!!!!
Dave...
fidget
Lemon magnet
I should add, it will help if you don't mind tinkering with your folders. They can arrive with a few small jobs to be done on them....
oftheherd
Veteran
You might look at some of the other folders as well. Welta had several that are very good, both with rangefinder and without. Fuji and Mamiya also had very good ones. Mamiya had one with a coupled rangefinder that moved the film plane rather than the lens.
Some folders are convertable, so you can shoot 645 or 6x6 if you have the mask. The Russian Moskva cameras are good if you can find a good one. Like all Russian cameras, if you get a good one you will happy, if you don't, you won't be. And you probably won't know which you have until you get it in hand. Of course, that is true of all old folders. As to the 645, I am not personally a fan of that format, but some are.
I have several folders and in general, like them very much. They produce good photos, and are easy to carry. Other than the Mamiya and the Moskva, I don't have rangefinders. None of mine have meters, coupled or not. I find I can scale focus without the need of a rangefinder. It isn't hard to do with a minimum of practice. It was how I started out in adjustable cameras, with a 35mm folder. I also have several hand holdable light meters. I don't mind using them at all. It isn't as fast as having a match needle or auto-exposure in the viewfinder, but one learns to use them. It is just another process in the workflow, like scale focusing.
Believe it or not, one of my favorites is a Zeiss Ikon 6x9. No meter, no rangefinder, but a very big negative and very light and small enough to carry in a large pocket. Two of my 35mm kits also have folders with them just for the MF negative when I want that.
I am sure others will chime in with their favorite folders as well.
EDIT: Sorry, I meant to add welcome to RFF.
Some folders are convertable, so you can shoot 645 or 6x6 if you have the mask. The Russian Moskva cameras are good if you can find a good one. Like all Russian cameras, if you get a good one you will happy, if you don't, you won't be. And you probably won't know which you have until you get it in hand. Of course, that is true of all old folders. As to the 645, I am not personally a fan of that format, but some are.
I have several folders and in general, like them very much. They produce good photos, and are easy to carry. Other than the Mamiya and the Moskva, I don't have rangefinders. None of mine have meters, coupled or not. I find I can scale focus without the need of a rangefinder. It isn't hard to do with a minimum of practice. It was how I started out in adjustable cameras, with a 35mm folder. I also have several hand holdable light meters. I don't mind using them at all. It isn't as fast as having a match needle or auto-exposure in the viewfinder, but one learns to use them. It is just another process in the workflow, like scale focusing.
Believe it or not, one of my favorites is a Zeiss Ikon 6x9. No meter, no rangefinder, but a very big negative and very light and small enough to carry in a large pocket. Two of my 35mm kits also have folders with them just for the MF negative when I want that.
I am sure others will chime in with their favorite folders as well.
EDIT: Sorry, I meant to add welcome to RFF.
literiter
Well-known
Ah, yes. Read the above a few more times.
-If you are sure you want a folder be prepared for a bit of a search to find a good one.
-Not that this should discourage you but even when you find a good one it is likely to be fairly old (like 50+years) and will need a little tinkering from time to time. It is really handy if you can do some repairs yourself.
-I find folders, like my Super Ikontas, really are best used used on a tripod and stopped down to f16 or so. My Certo 6 can be used wide open.
But, folding cameras are really worth the effort, once found, and you are comfortable with the reliability.
Lightweight, compact, maneuverable, discrete and very quiet. The images can be marvelous. I also find that people tend to react differently when they have a vintage folder pointed at them than say a Hasselblad.
Peter_Jones
Well-known
I've got an Agfa Isolette 111 , with uncoupled rangefinder. Very pocketable, and slips inside a camera bag pocket without taking up too much space/weight.
As already stated by fidget, you may need to do a little work on any folder, and definitely check the bellows for light leaks.
As already stated by fidget, you may need to do a little work on any folder, and definitely check the bellows for light leaks.
Svitantti
Well-known
I'd go with one that has a coupled rangefinder. My own is a Super Baldax, it is great. Zeiss could be a bit expensive, but great too. I would actually still prefer Baldax. Check out www.certo6.com for some info on different models (there are more too of course, not listed there).
oftheherd
Veteran
That is generally true. Most people tend to think you must be some rank amature who doesn't know what you are doing and so are no threat.
thinkfloyd
Flippy Nose
Thanks for the welcome and the replies! I can see I can learn a lot here...
I use my DSLR's for color and for work only (another reason why I want the portability of folders)... the only camera I bring everyday is my camphone (I know, I know... pathetic). The most portable camera I have is my old 35mm Pentax ME Super with a 28/2.8 lens which I can stuff in my messenger bag. For me digital = work, snapshots and concert/gig photography. While film = art. I find myself thinking about composition, exposure, timing, etc., when using film and I can just imagine how much more careful I'll be with a camera that requires slow and deliberate shot making...
@fidget: I'll be purchasing a folder from Jurgen so I'm confident that whatever I'll buy will be in great shape...
@oftheherd: I read about all the other folders, but budget-wise and a (false?) need for a built-in rangefinder and/or a lightmeter narrowed my choices to those two...also, what do you mean by scale focus?
Thanks!
I use my DSLR's for color and for work only (another reason why I want the portability of folders)... the only camera I bring everyday is my camphone (I know, I know... pathetic). The most portable camera I have is my old 35mm Pentax ME Super with a 28/2.8 lens which I can stuff in my messenger bag. For me digital = work, snapshots and concert/gig photography. While film = art. I find myself thinking about composition, exposure, timing, etc., when using film and I can just imagine how much more careful I'll be with a camera that requires slow and deliberate shot making...
@fidget: I'll be purchasing a folder from Jurgen so I'm confident that whatever I'll buy will be in great shape...
@oftheherd: I read about all the other folders, but budget-wise and a (false?) need for a built-in rangefinder and/or a lightmeter narrowed my choices to those two...also, what do you mean by scale focus?
Thanks!
bmattock
Veteran
Cameras without rangefinders have a distance scale of some sort engraved on the lens collar. Typically, this is in feet or meters, sometimes both.
On 'zone-focus' cameras, the distances are marked with icons representing an approximate distance, such as an icon of a face for a close portrait, a head-and-shoulders icon for, well, you guessed it, and an outline of mountains for infinity. But these zone-focus cameras are more commonly seen on 35mm cameras.
To focus a camera which does not have a rangefinder, one either measures the distance to the subject by estimation or by using a measuring instrument of some type.
When these cameras were popular, accessory or pocket rangefinders were also popular. Search eBay for 'watameter' and 'ideal range finder' and 'pocket rangefinder' for examples. They are simply rangefinders, just like you'd find on a camera, but they are designed to slide into the camera's accessory shoe when needed. You find the distance, then turn the focus collar on the lens to match the distance read out on the pocket range finder.
One only has to be careful to get a pocket range finder that reads out in the same measuring system as the camera - feet or meters - or be prepared to commit math.
The other system, as I mentioned, is estimation, also known as 'guestimation'. One guesses the distance and sets it on the lens focus collar.
This is not unlike setting exposure without a meter - you might manage to get halfway decent at it in time, and if you shoot under the same or similar conditions all the time, you might not ever have to worry about it. For example, if you shoot landscapes, then infinity focus (actually probably hyperfocus) is your friend. Depth-of-Field at small apertures will cover a multitude of errors, just like film latitude covers small exposure errors. It only gets difficult if you are shooting close in, or at wider apertures, in which case you would probably definitely want a pocket range finder.
Like any older manual system, it is not generally difficult to do, but it adds time and some complexity to your work flow. Using an older folding camera means learning about remembering to advance the film using the red window the same way every time (either right after you take a shot or right before, but if you don't have a system, you'll forget and get blank frames and double exposures). It means remembering to cock the shutter, the winder doesn't do that for you on many cameras. It means setting the focus, aperture, and shutter speed way out on the front of the camera, which is most inconvenient compared to modern 35mm SLR cameras.
However, the results can be stunning, especially on a very large MF such as 6x9 (my personal favorite). You can get a neg which you can scan and it will blow away ANY modern consumer digital camera output, and most 35mm film as well.
Whatever you get, check the bellows for light leaks before you go out, put a piece of tape over the red window so you keep out as much light as possible, and have fun. FYI, Agfa folding cameras often have frozen front focusing cells from the type of grease they used then. If you get one, be prepared to spend many a fun hour with a toothpick and degreaser, trying to get it unstuck. They're good cameras, but that dang grease they used then, argh.
thinkfloyd
Flippy Nose
Unfortunately, the Isolette's and Baldax's are much too expensive for me
So from what I understand so far, a built-in rangefinder is better than an accessory rangefinder since the accessory ones are good for 3m or less correct? I know a handheld meter is better rather than a built-in one, so... if I get scale focusing down pat, and I have a lightmeter on hand, I'll be ok with, say a Perkeo? How about the lens? The Solida IIL has the Xenar lens which I read is great...
So from what I understand so far, a built-in rangefinder is better than an accessory rangefinder since the accessory ones are good for 3m or less correct? I know a handheld meter is better rather than a built-in one, so... if I get scale focusing down pat, and I have a lightmeter on hand, I'll be ok with, say a Perkeo? How about the lens? The Solida IIL has the Xenar lens which I read is great...
bmattock
Veteran
The accessory range finders cover the same distances as built-in rangefinders. No differences that I'm aware of, just one is integral to the camera and the other isn't.
Krosya
Konicaze
Here is a thread - a good place to start on folder info:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62283
Personally, I love folders and tried many. I think it comes down to personal taste - I kept Weltas Welturs - both coupled RF, great lenses and very well made. One 6x6 and one 6x9. Plus masks for 645. But there are others that are good. Condition of it is important to be able to get good results. I dont mind taking things apart and adjusting things, so I was able to find mine in pretty good condition and bring them to fully working state. But it's often a gamble. Worth a try though as they can deliver very good results. Good luck!
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62283
Personally, I love folders and tried many. I think it comes down to personal taste - I kept Weltas Welturs - both coupled RF, great lenses and very well made. One 6x6 and one 6x9. Plus masks for 645. But there are others that are good. Condition of it is important to be able to get good results. I dont mind taking things apart and adjusting things, so I was able to find mine in pretty good condition and bring them to fully working state. But it's often a gamble. Worth a try though as they can deliver very good results. Good luck!
W
Way
Guest
Welcome to the forum! If you find a good folder and it is in good working order, it is a great way to shoot medium format. It may be one of the more inexpensive ways to get into MF.
Out of all my cameras, one of my favorite is an Agfa Super Isolette. It has a coupled rangefinder and was my first folder. I also use it wide open and am very happy with the results. The Russian Iskra is a copy of the Super Isolette and can be found for less than the Agafa. Just find a good copy. Folders are so easy to carry and it's MF to boot! I hear that the Perkeos are great cameras. The uncoupled Agfa Isolettes are also very good (I like the Solinar lens).
Out of all my cameras, one of my favorite is an Agfa Super Isolette. It has a coupled rangefinder and was my first folder. I also use it wide open and am very happy with the results. The Russian Iskra is a copy of the Super Isolette and can be found for less than the Agafa. Just find a good copy. Folders are so easy to carry and it's MF to boot! I hear that the Perkeos are great cameras. The uncoupled Agfa Isolettes are also very good (I like the Solinar lens).
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Krosya
Konicaze
here is one of my Weltas:
and here are pics I took with it - not bad for a camera that was made around 1930:
And these were at or close to wide open at 2.8!
and here are pics I took with it - not bad for a camera that was made around 1930:
And these were at or close to wide open at 2.8!
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thinkfloyd
Flippy Nose
Thanks! So a pocket rangefinder is a good idea still... I "kinda" have a workflow with film since I use my film camera a lot though it has a light meter and it's an SLR so focusing is "simpler" and the shutter/film winding is one and the same... I made it a habit to cock the lever after each shot, and usually set aperture before I focus, so there's that. Which is why I'm thinking of the Solida with lightmeter, since I'm used to having one on my 35mm... Jurgen has rangefinders available if I need them he says so basically, all is ready, I just need to decide which folder to get...