Newbie to Rangefinders....need some advice

[hd_Jack]

Hi all,

My name is Jack, Im from Toronto. Ive been shooting with a Canon Elan II SLR for a few years, and have decided to buy my first Rangefinder. With all of the routes open to follow, Im not sure which way to go. I would like to have the option to use excellent lenses, as Im a "lense guy" and the quality of the lenses are to me, the most important part of the camera.

Could you please give me some advice as to which brands to look at? Im also, not looking to break my bank account in half to get into the rangefinder scene.....Id like to get good value for my dollar, but also, sink $ into something that will have value down the road if I decide to sell. I would also like to get a camera that is "up to date". a good built in meter, maybe even Ap priority mode.....but not a must. At the end of the day though, great lenses are what Im looking for...

Thanks in advance for any help..

Cheers,

Jack

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Welcome aboard. We love new members with the "I like lots of lenses" attitude.

Wanting an aperture priority mode and interchangeable lenses puts you into modern day cameras. You choices are the Leica M7 which is much more expensive that your SLR's, or the Cosina made Voigtlander branded cameras.

This is a great write-up on the camera. It uses "M-Mount" lenses. Lenses going back to the 1930's can be used with this camera via an "Leica Thread Mount" adapter. M-Mount lenses have been around for a shorter time, since 1954, that will attach directly. Suffice it to say, a plethora of lenses await you. You can't argue with a word like plethora.

http://cameraquest.com/voigtr2ar3a.htm

 

[hd_Jack]

Thanks Brian,

Ive been reading about the r3a...looks very nice, I cant believe the price difference between them and the Leicas.

How does the a New r3a compare to a used Minolta CLE? The Minolta also got great reviews, but I would be buying a used camera instead of a new one...Ive never bought a used body before....

What would you reccomend?

Jack

 

[JoeFriday]

hi Jack.. welcome to RFF

most of us have been in the same spot you're now in.. many of us very recently, in fact.. the standard advice is to pick up a 'cheap' fixed lens rangefinder to get a feel for the concept.. typically you'll spend about $50 or less on a decent setup.. you don't have to spend much to get some decent gear.. especially now that the masses have decided digital is the 'only way to go'

spend some time with that, and then you can step up to something else when you get a feel for all the options.. I personally have been into the RF scene for about 6 months, and I'm only now starting to figure out what direction I'd like to go

as for cheap rangefinders.. here are some good places to start.. they're all going to be from the mid '70s...

Canonet QL17 GIII
Yashica GSN
Minolta Hi-Matic 7sii
russian models such as Zorki, FED or Kiev (interchangable lens but usually no meter)
Olympus XA or XA2
Konica Auto S2 (a bit more expensive, tho)

there are tons more that I can't even think of offhand

so poke around the site.. ask lots of questions (or do searches for keywords.. most questions have been asked a hundred times already)

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The electronics of the CLE are getting old, and getting it repaired is a task. A good condition, working CLE will run almost the same price as the R3a. But you are taking a bit of a risk that the circuit board will not fail. The even older Leitz/Minolta CL is mechanical and much easier to repair. It does not offer aperture-preferred automation. The CL uses a CDS cell, and they can become "non-linear", ie lose low and high level sensitivity, with age. The CDS cell can be replaced, but it is not cheap.

The other camera to look at is the Leica M6. It is fully manual, mechanical shutter, has a built in TTL meter, uses photodiodes, and can be had for about $1,000~1,400 depending on condition. That puts it midway into the R3a and M7 prices.

 

[Fred]

Welcome to the RFF Jack,

The advice given so far is very good indeed. The Voigtlander R2A and R3A are very good but are not the same sort of build or refinement as the Leica M7. A leica in pro hands will last a very long time. A fellow RFF member Roger Hicks has been using them for a long time as a professional and still uses them (not the M7, but the MP). I'm not sure that the R2A or R3A would hold out quite so well but are still better made than the cost implies.

Something that is not quite out yet is the new Zeiss Ikon that is due in a month or so. It lives somewhere between the Voigtlander and the Leica and has apterture priority auto as well.

In a nut shell, I'd take the advice from Brett and try a fixed lens RF to see how you get on for a month or so then try all of the above and see which one fits.

Have fun.

 

[peter_n]

As a former and almost lifetime SLR user I would 3rd that advice. I would get a cheapo fixed-lens RF cam in the interim and continue to research your purchase, there are infinite variations. Part of the issue is that its not just a matter of getting a different camera, its also about a different way of thinking. Some people coming from SLRs just don't like rangefinders for whatever reason, and $30-40 on a RF is a lot different from what you'd pay for a new Voigtlander. You would be amazed at the lens quality of some of the inexpensive fixed-lens RF cams, BTW.

I came from years of SLR use and jumped straight in with a Leica M6TTL and luckily loved it from the start. The RF took a while to get used to but my SLR gear is gathering dust now. The advice you're getting is good, the Cosina Voigtlander (CV) stuff is great with terrific bang for the buck on both bodies and lenses. Then there is old Leica, Canon and Nikon gear (plenty of proponents on this forum) and a completely new line from Zeiss Ikon with an AE mode as posted above. I'm a modern Leica fan and it is very expensive but retains its value probably better than any other brand.

Buying used was a new concept for me too, I had never bought used until I started with RF cams, but the things are so freaking expensive you are almost forced into it. If you can be patient you can get good deals from forums such as RFF or photo.net - I recently bought an M7 (3 rolls of film through it) from a guy in Australia for 65% of the current price of the cam on the B&H web site. Yes I was very lucky to get that price but I waited many, many months to get exactly the camera I wanted and it still cost me $125 over my self-imposed price ceiling. 🙁

So I would say get an inexpensive one to make sure you like the "rangefinder way" and at the same time do your research and learning. There is a ton of stuff on the archives here and at photo.net that will keep you busy for months, but do take a long hard look at the CV stuff as it is excellent. There are some very friendly blokes up there in the Toronto area who seem to meet on an irregular basis and they would be an excellent resource too. Welcome to this forum and to rangefinders Jack! 🙂

 

[jlw]

I would get a cheapo fixed-lens RF cam in the interim and continue to research your purchase, there are infinite variations. Part of the issue is that its not just a matter of getting a different camera, its also about a different way of thinking.

Although that's often good advice and I endorse it (I don't know that I want to go quite as far as "fourthing" it) it's very important to keep one thing in mind: The optics of rangefinders on moderate-price cameras have improved a lot since the 1970s.

Although the fixed-lens RF cameras are inexpensive to buy, and some have excellent lenses, none of them has what I would consider truly modern rangefinder optics. With all of them, to one degree or another, you'll find that the viewfinder may look somewhat dim and the rangefinder spot has blurry edges. The finder won't seem as clear and precise as what you're used to with your SLR viewfinder; you may find it difficult to line up the two rangefinder images for focusing; and in general you'll be a bit dissatisfied with the experience and wonder what all the fuss is about.

I feel that to truly give the rangefinder experience a fair shake, you have to use a camera that has a modern rangefinder system. These cameras have extra optics in the rangefinder to bring all the different parts of the system into focus; in particular, the rangefinder patch has clear, sharply defined edges, rather than just blending blurrily into the background. With this type of system, the finder looks bright, sharp and precise; the rangefinder patch is easy to spot and easier to line up; and in general the whole experience is more satisfying.

It may not be technically precise to do this, but I'm going to refer to this type of rangefinder as "fully collimated," because all the different parts (framelines, rangefinder patch, etc.) are brought into the same plane of focus and appear sharp and crisp to the eye.

Unfortunately, because of the extra complexity of a fully collimaged rangefinder, you won't find it on any "budget" camera. The first 35mm camera that had it was the Leica M3 of 1954; every Leica since then has had a fully collimated rangefinder. That includes Leica's joint-venture camera, the Leica CL and its twins the Leitz/Minolta CL and Minolta CL; as well as Minolta's follow-on solo effort, the Minolta CLE.

Other than that, though, there was NO 35mm camera (at least none I can think of at the moment) with a fully collimated rangefinder until Cosina got into the business, and they've done a great job. The original, relatively inexpensive Bessa R had a wonderfully bright, crisp range/viewfinder with fully collimated optics (although, to keep the cost down, it had a short "base length" that limits its precision with long, fast lenses.) The later Bessa R2, R2a and R3a models have also inherited bright, sharp fully-collimated rangefinder systems, and the forthcoming Zeiss Ikon camera (built by Cosina) will have a more elaborate, fully collimated rangefinder with a longer base length for better focusing precision.

If you have never used a rangefinder camera before, I strongly recommend you start with one of these -- or if you don't want to spend that much money, at least try one out in a shop, so you'll know what you're missing! Once you've gotten used to using a good, modern rangefinder, it will be easier for you to figure out the older, non-collimated types if you take a liking to them or want a less expensive alternative.

 

[Fred]

Peter is right, do not rule out the used equipment. It will save you some money if the right item comes along at the right time. Don't rule out some of the used FSU kit either, there's some good glass out there.

I waited one day too long for a used M7 that really was mint from Robert White earlier this year. I ended up paying more for a new one with the 50 cron 'starter outfit'. I certainly do not regret it one jot. A wonderful camera and lens. The sharpness is astonishing for 35mm. Unfortunately this blew the budget for other Leica glass inthe imediate term.

For a while I used a few Voigtlander lenses (35 Ultron, and 90 APO Lanthar) with M adapters to suplement the 50 and was very pleased with the quality, fantastic image quality for the price, certainly better than I am anyway.

I now very fortunate to use 35 asph, 50 asph, 90 asph Leica Glass that I purchased from the outfit used by very good photoghrapher freind who sadly passed away earlier this year.

I still use the CV 28 f3.5 and CV 15 f4.5, these really are little gems.

 

[FrankS]

Welcome, fellow Torontonian! There's a camera flea market/ show coming up in Thornhill in September. You'd be able to find, see, and handle almost all available types of cameras including RF cameras.

 

[hd_Jack]

Thanks!

Thanks!

Thanks for taking the time to help out everyone! Much appreciated. Ill keep you posted as to which road I take!

Cheers,

Jack

 

[JoeFriday]

another aspect of picking up a cheapo RF at first is that you think of it more as a 'toy' than a piece of serious gear.. while I love my Contax/Sonnar combination, when I pick it up I automatically think I have to take 'professional quality' shots.. but when I pick up my Canonet I think of having fun.. sort of the difference between work and play

we're definitely not trying to convince you to not spend the money on quality gear.. in fact, we're all about quality here.. it's just that selecting the 'right gear' can be a very daunting process.. and you might as well have something else to use while you're doing your research

so go get a Canonet or a GSN or something else right now.. if you decide you don't like it, you don't have much invested, and you'll know a little bit about what you do or don't want in regards to your 'serious gear'

 

[Kin Lau]

Could you please give me some advice as to which brands to look at? Im also, not looking to break my bank account in half to get into the rangefinder scene.....Id like to get good value for my dollar, but also, sink $ into something that will have value down the road if I decide to sell. I would also like to get a camera that is "up to date". a good built in meter, maybe even Ap priority mode.....but not a must. At the end of the day though, great lenses are what Im looking for...

Hi Jack.... thankfully we're not in an airport or airplane 🙂

The most affordable Ap priority RF happens to be the Yashica Electro Gxx series, cheap as in CDN$20 to $40- since the battery is hard to find, but there's plenty of alternatives. The lense is very good, and the meter is among one of the more accurate ones too.

Other's have already commented on the alternatives.

 

[Uncle Bill]

Hi Jack,
Welcome to the world of rangefinder cameras. What gear to get, I landed into this due a death in the family, I am now proud custodian of my late dad's Leica M3 which I use a lot. I also have a Contax IIIa, Kiev III and a Canon Canonet QL17 GIII.
That was my fleet. If I was starting from scratch and it is all dependant how many pictures of the queen and prime ministers you have in your sock drawer. There are two ways to go about it one buy new get a Voightlander Bessa R2a get a Skopar 35/2.5 lens, a Nocton 50/1.5 and a Lanther 90 and you are set. Cosina makes really nice glass and I use the 35 SKopar with my Leica. That is option one, you could go brand snob and go used Leica and get either an M3 or M6 if you want a meter on board and get some Lieca glass like a 50/2 Summicron and 90 Elmar. If you have a trust fund thats topped up get a brand new Lieca MP.
If you are on a tight budget the Canonet takes really nice shots. I have other camera people laugh at mine until I show the pictures it takes, the laughing stops and I have questions on where to find one.

Bill

 

[Uncle Bill]

Jack,
I forgot, I am from the GTA as well. I am thinking of putting together another gathering of the tribe/cult in September on a Saturday afternoon where we can partake fine beer. You are welcome to come. If you have any questions on the Pentax Spotmatics from your other thread, contact me back channel.

Bill

 

[John]

Jack,

There is a used Contax G2 for sale in this forum's used area. Re. resale - if a person kept it in good shape they should be able to get almost that same price again some day ($455.00 US). I have one and I like it; however, I do not get to focus in like the Leica folks. If you don't mind pressing an autofocus button instead of collimating? - they are great. They are solid and well built. The lenses are superb and reasonable. They are a cool looking outfit. Try one to see if the viewfinder suits you. I can see lots through mine, but also understand the expansiveness available on other cameras such as Leica.

 

[John]

Jack,

Hello again, another thought came to mind. When I decide I would like to buy something - I first try to find out what I consider to be the best. Other people's opinion is weighed into the mix to help me choose. You can develop a spreadsheet with some pros and cons. The "best" often turns out to be the most expensive. If I decide that I can not afford to invest in the "best" I have to look at the "second best" and so on down the line. At the end of it all you will have rationalized to yourself why you have the unit you decided on.

 

[ducttape]

I started with a Voigtlander L. Not a rangefinder, but it used Leica screw mount. The rangefinder model was easy to justify once I was convinced I really liked the Voigt. lenses. I bought fairly early, perhaps 1999-2000 or so, so I paid top dollar for it. However, pricing has come down quite a bit and five years old mine still works great, so you shouldn't rule that out. I think you can pick up an R on the web for under $200.

I think the newer R models would be over kill for tasting the format. And, I don't think the resale value would be there if you bought new.

Someone below mentioned a used M6. Yes, you can probably steal one on eBay for under a grand, or maybe get screwed for $1100-1400. However, you are buying a depreciated item and can flip it for certainly what you paid for it. If you are a good ad writer you can probably even capture your selling fees and postage back.

And, although they really are very, very good cameras, NO Voigtlander, or any rangefinder, is like a Leica.

Having a good paying job (at the time, at least!), once the M7 came out I flipped my M6. As I bought the M6 new I think it cost me a few hundred to do so, but I DO love the M7.

But, I probably wouldn't know HOW much I love it had I not worked my way up to it.

So, in a nutshell, start out with the cheapest quality you can afford, and work your way up to the best quality you can afford, IF the medium works for you.

Keep us posted!