Nikon digital RF

[Stephen G]

This is true.
Camera companies follow each other into any nice that sells in bulk.
The AF DSLR wave then turned to mirrorless AF cameras in 2009ish.
Now in 2013 we are seeing the big push into compact, non-interchangeable lens cameras with large (or largish) sensors.
Ricoh sort of did this with the GXR, but with the lensor quirk.
Sigma pushed forward, and now Fuji, Sony, Nikon are following.

Philosophically, these latest cameras may be closer to what RFF folk want, though they are not in way rangefinders.
They are a different way of seeing/focussing, but a similar high-quality in a small package philosophy.

It is called the A...look for new and improved models in the future. None will be RFs is my guess however. Who knows though they redid the old RFs not to along ago?

 

[redisburning]

I think the impact of mirrorless interchangables in this thread has been overstated somewhat.

manual & indirect focusing was a brilliant solution when the ideal was still impossible.

the camera that carries the torch today is the Sigma DP-Xm. it totally moved the line of IQ for it's form factor. it's got its frustrating/endearing quirks. and it's just a straightforward tool for the people who have both the opportunity and the skill to put it to it's strengths.

Nikon could make a fine RF. In fact, I dont think it would have to be that great to sell ok. But as far as ROI goes, Nikon needs to get those lens refreshes out first to go with their megapixel monster and whatever body comes next, a body which will have to live up to a potential Canon that makes the d800 look low fidelity.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

I'm not an expert on DSLR to tell, who is the best.
Most of new DSLRs I see at big box stores are from Canon.

It looks like on compact advanced cameras market sector it is getting to EVF-hybrid solution.

I don't think any new RF are going to be introduced. Here is digital RF imitation with some new Fuji X cameras, but real RF is optical-mechanical, doesn't matter if digital or film camera back is.

 

[mfunnell]

Keith, firstly I agree that a Nikon digital RF would be a wonderful thing. Bring it on! Especially if done in the same spirit as other Nikon "vanity projects" (I don't know what else to call them) like the FM3a, S3 2000 and SP 2005.

But I do think you're being a bit hard on Nikon and Canon. "Sure, you pretty much established mass-market digital photography and brought high-end digital to the mass market as well, made continual advancements in things like high-ISO imaging, larger (ie. full 35mm frame) sensor technology, live view - and introduced affordable large-sensor videography. But what have you done for us lately?"

While Nikon and Canon have mostly concentrated their higher-end development on SLR-based systems (perhaps something of an anathema around RFF), the technology they have advanced has very much contributed to various mirrorless larger-sensor cameras. I strongly suspect that Canon's new on-sensor, all-over-the-sensor, phase detection autofocus will be very useful for mirrorless systems - even if Canon uses it more for video (where they seem to be concentrating a lot of effort).

Faster autofocus for not-SLRs? I'm sure RFF could approve of that! (Well, those who don't hate anything digital should, anyway.) No doubt Nikon has "good stuff" in the works as well.

...Mike

 

[doolittle]

I imagine part of the reason Nikon, Fuji et al shy away from optical rangefinders is the inevitable maintenance/adjustment problems that will surface. Leica seems to have made an industry out of repairs and cla, I don't think others want to follow that road. Therefore evf or hybrid evf might continue to be the favoured option for this segment?

 

[Highway 61]

Some lucky sod has just bought a new SP and has posted a pic of it in a thread and I immediately started to think about Leica and their progression with the digital M. The latest incarnation, the M240, currently has a waiting list of twelve months and when they finish their new production plants that will still be three months according to the good doctor K.

I realise the Japanese just don't think this way but why not create a smallish design team and facility to produce a digital version of the SP ... albeit with the necessary changes to bring it into the digital world as Leica did with the traditional M.

Nikon are currently making the best DSLRs on the market but outside of that realm they aren't really doing anything spectacular ... so why not make something that will make everyone take a breath and realise that there is still some 'soul' left in this company?

Keith, what actual and long-term Nikonists have been expecting for years is a small full-metal-jacket DSLR dedicated to their Ai-S manual focus prime lenses ; a kind of FM3-D which Nikon could make within a breeze. No AF, no video, no silly gadgets in the menu, a nice 100% viewfinder, no built-in flash, no nasty USB-HDMI-video ports, a good battery, a reliable shutter, and of course a FF sensor with, say, 16MP, not more. All in all a solid and reliable photographic tool for the serious photographer.

The camera most people having bought a D700 as a default choice would hurry on as soon as it's manufactured and available, and for which there IS a dynamic market around I'm certain.

But they damn' don't want to make it... so, hoping to see them making a digital rangefinder for a lens mount dead long ago doesn't make much sense.

 

[daveleo]

. . . a kind of FM3-D which Nikon could make within a breeze. No AF, no video, no silly gadgets in the menu, a nice 100% viewfinder, no built-in flash, no nasty USB-HDMI-video ports, a good battery, a reliable shutter, and of course a FF sensor with, say, 16MP, not more. All in all a solid and reliable photographic tool for the serious photographer. . . . .

Only in my dreams 🙂 (I'd settle for an APS-C sensor.)

What if . . . we could send our FM3A's to the Nikon shop for a digital back retrofit !

 

[mfunnell]

Re the FM3-D: how is anybody going to be satisfied by this until it works without batteries? Winding it would have to generate enough energy to store one NEF onto a memory card. Else they'll never hear the end of the complaints.

...Mike

 

[RObert Budding]

It's all about scale, scale, scale.
Nikon/Canon are firms setup to ship products in volumes 100-1000x higher than what Leica ships. They ship 5-8MM DSLRs/year, versus Leicas 10-15k Ms/year. Then add in all the compact sales and.. yeah.
This is also reflected in the number of employees (~1k versus 20-200k).
Big companies are just not setup to ship small batch products.
Where we did/do see some of this experimentation, it's from firms which do not have an existing market share advantage.
Epson toying around with the R-D1, Fuji with various sensor designs, the X100, and now the XF/XC mount mirrorless bodies.

Between the two, the one most likely to go out and do something whacky like this is Nikon. However, the appetite of Japanese firms for limited-edition oddball products seems to have died around 2000ish.

Most companies are setup to be high volume & low margin, or low volume & high margin. I cannot think of many examples of firms which sell products in both categories..
Fuji is being held up as a firm doing innovative things, but a manual focus rangefinder body is not going to sell even 1/100th the volume that Fuji is aiming for.
Look at what they have been doing with their X bodies, making them increasingly pedestrian and cheap with each iteration. Adding zoom lenses in bulk, and don't forget - they are AF cameras, and primarily AF cameras.
Remember the AF mirrorless camera market is about 3MM/year. On the low end, if Fuji can capture even 5% of this, that is about 150k/year of volume. This is about 10x the high end of what Leica ships per year.

Would I love someone (anyone really) to make a Leica/Nikon/something mount true RF digital body for under $5k? Yes!
Do I believe it's happening anytime soon.. no.
Maybe in a few years when the golden goose of DSLRs sales truly starts to die, we will see more experimentation from the likes of Nikon and Canon. We will likely see a number of firms go bankrupt or exit the camera market entirely, much like we did when digital sales eclipsed film.

Small companies can achieve scale in many areas simply by sourcing standard parts from suppliers. It isn't as if Leica is manufacturing CCD's. Leica did, however, decide to use some of the most expensive labor in the world to build their cameras (not that I disagree with their choice). And they have a level of quality control that is extremely high.

 

[JSU]

Nikon went to great pains not to obsolete most of their manual focus lenses, at least all of the AIS series. With their move to the G series lenses with no aperture ring, I can't conceive of them obsoleting them or even bringing out any DSLR that isn't fully compatible with this series.

With respect to a digital RF, I'm pretty sure they see the success of the the Fuji X series and understand the overwhelming majority that demand AF.

Considering NIkon has their "1" lineup, I doubt now that they will introduce any other distinct lineups. Since they still use the APS-C sensor in some cameras, just maybe they could add their own version of the X Pro-1.

A full frame mirrorless that uses the existing FX series of AF Nikkors could also happen and stimulate a strong following. Being based on a FF sensor it wouldn't be going head-to-head with the Fuji X cameras.

A mirrorless variation of the D600 with an adaption of the X Pro-1 optical/electronic VF with some DX primes might generate some serious excitement and momentum.

I think the days of the optical VF DSLR are numbered. The OM-D E-M5 has shown an integral EVF will sell. The X Pro-1 has shown the potential of a RF form factor camera, too.

. . . a kind of FM3-D which Nikon could make within a breeze. No AF, no video, no silly gadgets in the menu, a nice 100% viewfinder, no built-in flash, no nasty USB-HDMI-video ports, a good battery, a reliable shutter, and of course a FF sensor with, say, 16MP, not more. All in all a solid and reliable photographic tool for the serious photographer.

. . . .

But they damn' don't want to make it... so, hoping to see them making a digital rangefinder for a lens mount dead long ago doesn't make much sense.

 

[Rangefinderfreak]

Like it or not, the future of small digital cameras is THE CAMERAPHONE ! Nokia is already very close to the optimum in sensor performance, but the lens is the one that needs to be improved. Rodenstock has the right idea with I Phone add-on lens kit, but it is still a "kit". I hope Nokia gets some right ideas with Zeiss or then teams up with, for example Nikon to produce a true "reportage tool" like the leica was in the 1920`s It does not have to be more compact than the original leica or even M but the phone/ Image transmission has to be better than is the situation now...without a laptop or I Pad...

 

[willie_901]

In my view Nikon is reluctant to cannibalize their cash cow, the DSLR. The loss of P&S marketshare to Smart Phones has them shaking in their boots. The V1 line has been a failure the V1 and 1-30 kit lens price started out at $1,000 and is now $400. The J1 has done better. It dropped from $600 to $400. I do not know how the CoolPix A is doing.

Steve Jobs said if you aren't willing to cannibalize your products, someone else will be more than happy to do it for you. While DSLRs still out sell mirrorless cameras by a significant margin, it's only a matter of time before DSLRs are no longer the serious family photographers' tool of choice. Nikon seems unwilling to develop products that will compete with their DSLRs.

 

[Godfrey]

The development work to make a digital RF camera based on a film RF camera, and able to use the film RF camera's lenses with compatibility, is hugely expensive and extensive. The lens to sensor micro-lens match is the critical issue, then there are the many issues of fitting all the required electronics into the body along with all the RF mechanical components. There's a reason why the Epson R-D1 was so expensive and so limited production, and why the M9 was such a great achievement.

I don't know whether Nikon could win enough sales on this sort of thing unless they went whole hog and delivered camera and a complete (at least five to seven) lens line tailored for it. And I bet it would cost at least in the same range as the Epson R-D1, or higher.

It would be nice to see another digital RF camera out there, but a TTL electronic viewing camera is far more likely.

G

 

[Highway 61]

Re the FM3-D: how is anybody going to be satisfied by this until it works without batteries? Winding it would have to generate enough energy to store one NEF onto a memory card. Else they'll never hear the end of the complaints.

...Mike

For a while I have been thinking that your nickname was mfunny 😀

 

[NickTrop]

Know who isn't stagnant? Nokia! (What?!?!)

Nokia Lumia 1020
-The 41MP sensor can capture 34MP and 38MP image files at 16:9 and 4:3 aspect ratios
-Mechanical image stabilization
- F2.2 25mm Zeiss Lens

(I use the 920 which has a Zeiss 2.0, 26mm 8 mpxl, mechanical IS. Of course, I went Windows 8 phone for the camera. Know what? It may not have all the bells/whistles - but this thing is a heckuva low-light performer...)

What's that they say about the best camera you have? The one you have with you? Something to consider.

Zeiss Talks About the Lens and Camera in the New Nokia Lumia 1020
http://www.thephoblographer.com/201...-lens-and-camera-in-the-new-nokia-lumia-1020/

 

[xayraa33]

This guy made is own digital Nikon SP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvJ12BmgNNo

 

[Range-rover]

What!!!😱

 

[Jan Van Laethem]

a kind of FM3-D which Nikon could make within a breeze. No AF, no video, no silly gadgets in the menu, a nice 100% viewfinder, no built-in flash, no nasty USB-HDMI-video ports, a good battery, a reliable shutter, and of course a FF sensor with, say, 16MP, not more. All in all a solid and reliable photographic tool for the serious photographer.

I'd be more than happy if Nikon could make this, there has been demand for this for a number of years now, although I doubt that Nikon would listen to a very small group of its users.

Especially if done in the same spirit as other Nikon "vanity projects" (I don't know what else to call them) like the FM3a, S3 2000 and SP 2005..

I have all three of these "vanity projects". All sources consulted have it that Nikon lost big money on the S32000 and the SP2005, they were sold well under their manufacturing cost and at a much higher price than their resale value is today. I recall a price tag of 8,000 USD for the SP2005 + lens. As for the FM3A, I don't recall the exact price nor how many were manufactured, so it may have been a better financial success for Nikon, but even then, counting in R&D costs, I doubt they did better than just break even.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think all three "vanity projects" were outsourced and not made at the Nikon factory.

 

[jonmanjiro]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think all three "vanity projects" were outsourced and not made at the Nikon factory.

Ok, I will correct you 🙂

The S3 2000, S3 2002, and SP 2005 bodies were manufactured at Mito Nikon. This is the same factory that manufactured the F3, FE and FM series including the FM3A, and some Nikomats too I believe.

The reissue lenses and optical finder components were manufactured by Tochigi Nikon. This is the same Nikon factory that manufactures such exotic glass as the UV Micro Nikkors and also I believe lenses for industrial use such as in IC steppers.

 

[Jan Van Laethem]

Ok, I will correct you 🙂

Thanks for this, Jon, it's always a pleasure being corrected on this forum.😀

So Mito Nikon and Tochigi Nikon are manufacturing plants within the Nikon group ? Where is the main manufacturing being done (DSLRs and lenses) ?