Nikon going out of the film camera business

VinceC said:
Hmmm. When I visited my dentist a few weeks ago, they took my mouth x-rays with film. As do tens of thousands of dental offices and hospitals every day. Black and white to boot. Not a big consumer market, but a strong niche market nonetheless.

A drop in the bucket. They'll be forced to find alternatives when film production stops. However, they're safe for awhile - I read the Foma's biggest income-maker is x-ray based film stock - they see 35mm as a sideline business. If x-rays were color film, they'd be in bigger trouble.

>>I never thought I'd see a used Nikon F4S for $265.
http://www.keh.com/shop/SHOWPRODUCT...curpic=0&dpsp=0
I have heard that the life expectancy of a liquid crystal display is about 10 years. Notice some of the equipment listed has LCD "bleed"<<

When I went to Saudi Arabia in September 1990, with the summer heat still pushing well into the triple digits, photographers with their new F4s were complaining that their LCDs were blacking out because of the temperatures. My older mechanical cameras, including a couple of RF bodies, performed just fine. Still do.

Again, nobody said digital was better than film. I said that film is dead. I don't know why people seem to think that 'superior' wins. Did Betamax win out over VHS?

The market decides, not logic, and not 'superior technology'. Sorry that means film loses. The market is stupid, but it has all the money.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
>>Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceC
Hmmm. When I visited my dentist a few weeks ago, they took my mouth x-rays with film. As do tens of thousands of dental offices and hospitals every day. Black and white to boot. Not a big consumer market, but a strong niche market nonetheless. <<
bmattock: >>A drop in the bucket. They'll be forced to find alternatives when film production stops. However, they're safe for awhile - I read the Foma's biggest income-maker is x-ray based film stock - they see 35mm as a sideline business. If x-rays were color film, they'd be in bigger trouble.<<


I agree consumer film is being phased out and going Third-World. But I don't see a compelling reason for the medical industry to switch. As I said, it's a niche market -- a drop in the bucket. But if you read that Foma's biggest income-maker is x-ray, what earthly reason would theyl have to halt production of a profitable product? And medical offices thrive on technology, with an investment in digital also being a "drop in the bucket," so the workflow-cost-quality tradeoffs must favor film.
 
One after the other fall out. It is most sad not only does Nikon go out of 35mm business but also of large format and enlargers. The nest generation may not know what an enlarger is, not that the young people now do.

Hopefully there are places like RFF, which keeps film, rangefinders, wet darkrooms and most of all, photgraphy, alive.
 
I agree consumer film is being phased out and going Third-World. But I don't see a compelling reason for the medical industry to switch. As I said, it's a niche market -- a drop in the bucket. But if you read that Foma's biggest income-maker is x-ray, what earthly reason would theyl have to halt production of a profitable product? And medical offices thrive on technology, with an investment in digital also being a "drop in the bucket," so the workflow-cost-quality tradeoffs must favor film.

Because doctor's offices are slowly switching to digital x-ray technology, the demand will slowly drop.

Manufacturing plants are not like, say, an auto repair business. With an auto repair business, when business picks up, you hire more mechanics, build some more bays. When business drops off, you let go some mechanics, idle some workstops. With me so far?

With a factory, the manufacturing line has an absolute cost. That's the cost that is expended every single day the line is open, and it doesn't vary much. The lights must be on, the heat must function, employees must be at their stations, and so on. Whether you produce 10 boxes of film a day or 10,000, the cost remains very nearly the same.

The expense of the raw materials consumed to make the film is not the biggest part of the expense of making film, you see. In fact, it is a minor impact. So if you make less film, then yes, you use fewer chemicals. But you still pay your workforce, the factory is still running and consuming money, but the costs now have to be spread across fewer product items. The cost to produce the goods goes up exponentially.

Just playing with numbers for purposes of illustration, but say a roll of film costs $1.00 to make in quantities of 100,000. If a factory 'idled down' to say 10,000 rolls of film a day, the cost per roll would be more like $10.00 per roll. Drop further down to 1,000 rolls a day, and the film now costs $100 per roll to make.

At some point, a critical line is passed. The factory become unprofitable and it must be shut down.

This happens when there is STILL SOME DEMAND for the product. But the product can no longer be made profitably in that factory, and now there can't be new factories built (perhaps smaller or more efficient, as would be done in many other industries).

So supply ends significantly before demand does. That puts the lie to "As long as there is demand, there will be supply." That's just an old wive's tale, a sop to people who are emotionally tied to their film use. People confidently say it to each other, but not one of them can prove it - and I can prove it is absolutely not true.

There are other considerations, of course. As factories close down, other factories get a temporary blip up as they absorb the output, but again, retail film sales have fallen off a cliff, and this drives everything else as well.

Industry analysts have said that retail film sales worldwide have dropped 30% per year for the past two years now, and that trend is accellerating. How many years can film have left?

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
copake_ham said:
Bill,

Don't get me wrong here but - I love you man!

Ditto, bud.

You are the some of the yeast that gets this bread a'risin'!

Well, some would probably rather I shut up.

Ideologically, I probably have much more in common with those Euros - but you and I are "friggin' 'mericans" and have to stick together! We might shoot down the black helicopters for different reasons but down they come! 😎

I admit nothing with regard to my late-night skulking activities. I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords.

More on topic, there's a great thread going on right now about Lucky film. I love it because folks on that one are totally ignorant of this "film is dead" one.

Most amazing this is that the title of THIS thread is misleading if you read the initial post.

Not really. Nikon's exit from the film camera business is directly tied to the death of film.

I tried to stay on topic but what the hey, off it went! I think you helped hi-jack it! 😛

Anyway, I'm grabbing some more mid-'70's to mid-'80's Nikon SLR manuals on eBay and keeping a healthy stock of required batteries. Since I am now 54 y.o. I am at the point where I can freeze most films until there is no personal tomorrow.

Now, mind you, I do need to take a course on B&W developing (have no interest in chem process though) - and probably should stock-in in a couple of scanners - but overall I think I'm set until I'm not around anymore.

And after that it's: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a demn!"

So, what do you wanna be when you grow up? :bang:

Regards,
George

I'm 45 this year. I just want to use film as long as I can. Since I'm color-blind anyway, I don't do as much color film as I do B&W film. Digital color works pretty well for me, because it tends to get the colors right more than my poor eyes do.

Developing B&W film is fun and easy, and gives me more creative control over the process, which I like very much. Magic.

Of course, I then scan the negs instead of englarging them as I used to. I have one foot in both worlds, the old and the new.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
bmattock said:
Simple deductive reasoning.

Not actually a 'fact' then, just your opinion.

As for film production pollution vs digital pollution. 100 years head start? Not every person in every household was producing film, using film or developing chemicals. However, every single consumer, in the Western world at least and increasingly in China and many developing countries, contributes to digital pollution. Old VCRs, TVs, Walkmans, cars, refridgerators, washing machines, computers, printers, digital cameras... ALL contain chip technology, ALL are regularly obsolete, ALL contribute massively to heavy metal pollution.
Film may have had a 100 year head start, but pollution wise, digital technology has left those film producers miles behind.
 
wyk_penguin said:
One after the other fall out. It is most sad not only does Nikon go out of 35mm business but also of large format and enlargers. The nest generation may not know what an enlarger is, not that the young people now do.

Hopefully there are places like RFF, which keeps film, rangefinders, wet darkrooms and most of all, photgraphy, alive.

I agree that RFF is a great place - you all are great folks, and I enjoy being here. I will do my best to keep using film until the last trump is played.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
Andy K said:
Not actually a 'fact' then, just your opinion.

Incorrect. I *am* going to die in the next 50 years. Film *is* dead. Elvis *has* left the building. 2+2 *does* equal 4. Axioms are accepted as fact.

These are not speculations, nor are they simply opinions with no basis in reality.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fact

fact (fkt)
n.
1. Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.
2.
a. Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed: Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact.
b. A real occurrence; an event: had to prove the facts of the case.
c. Something believed to be true or real: a document laced with mistaken facts.
3. A thing that has been done, especially a crime: an accessory before the fact.
4. Law The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence: The jury made a finding of fact.
Idiom:
in (point of) fact
In reality or in truth; actually.

Is it my opinion that film is dead? Yes. It is a reasoned opinion, and I put it forward as an actual fact. The information I based my statement upon is that Kodak has stated they are going to leave the film business by 2008, and Agfa Photo is no more. Industry analysts have stated (and Kodak and Fuj have used these statements as facts in their quarterly financial reports) that retail film sales are declining by 30% per year for the last two years, and that the trend is increasing.

There is no other conclusion that can be drawn by a rational person. Film is dead.

As for film production pollution vs digital pollution. 100 years head start? Not every person in every household was producing film, using film or developing chemicals.

Kodak et al, were making film 100 years ago, and thus producing massive chemical pollution of air, water, and groundwater systems. They may not have known it - I don't call them criminals, nor am I beating a drum for Earth First! I point out historic fact. No factories were making silicon computer chips 100 years ago - hence, they were not polluting.

However, every single consumer, in the Western world at least and increasingly in China and many developing countries, contributes to digital pollution. Old VCRs, TVs, Walkmans, cars, refridgerators, washing machines, computers, printers, digital cameras... ALL contain chip technology, ALL are regularly obsolete, ALL contribute massively to heavy metal pollution.

Quite true. So what? I never said that film production pollutes more than people throwing away TV sets in landfills. I said that the EPA has listed the photographic film production industry as one of the most polluting in the world - and that is fact, you can go to the EPA and look it the hell up.

I didn't say one is worse than the other. You could be right that computers pollute more than film. Again, so what? I don't care in the tiniest little bit.

My point was - and is - that no company will ever again build a photographic film production factory in the USA because among other reasons (like it would be dead stupid) the EPA would never permit it.

Show me where I said anything about computers or what polluters digital tech equipment is.

You still fall into the 'more better' trap. Your pet industry won't die because some other industry pollutes more? Give me a break. You're smarter than that.

Film may have had a 100 year head start, but pollution wise, digital technology has left those film producers miles behind.

I'm sure you're right. It does not matter one whit to the life expectancy of photographic film production.

It matters to environmentalists. It matters to concerned citizens for the earth. It matters to people whose groundwater is polluted. It does not matter to a company that wants to build a photographic film manufacturing plant. All that matters to them is that the EPA will tell them they can't have a permit.

Is some part of this hard to grasp?

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 

Bill, I dont understand what your going on about this time, Last week you called me a Tokyo Rose which is a acusation of treason for posting a picture and this week you seem to be proud and enthusiastic about a American Corperation "Eastmon Kodak" fireing thousands of employees and taking the money from little old ladys like my 90 year old grandma and investing it in a communist country. My last four rolls of Codak are sitting on my shelf, In the future ill spend my money on film from new democratic countries like the Ukraine, Chech Republic, Poland, ????? and buy old school Japanese stuff. As for digital I can get more than I can handle right here in Thailand, Malaysia, and Singapore.


Codak

Proletariat Film
 
bmattock said:
I *am* going to die in the next 50 years.

I thought you were only 45, Bill. You might get lucky enough to live to be 96... or more. Others before us have done it. Remember, we ARE embarking on the era of digital x-rays and with the superiority of digital vs film x-rays medical science will probably be able to prolong your life longer than you currently expect!

Re: the real topic... this is just one more hobby going right down the toilet because of 'improved technology'. First is was shortwave radio broadcasting being replaced by satellite broadcasting, then it was control-line model airplanes being replaced by radio control, then it was radio control flying being curtailed by "obstruction of a local airport", and now it's film photography on the way out. I'm starting to feel like a dinosaur. I'm only 49.8 year old, but too far out of shape to seriousl take up basketball!
 
Originally Posted by copake_ham
Now your crackin'. And don't forget to put a tube-radio down there together with the rotary-dial phone! Be prepared, that someboy's motto!

I wonder if a nuke pulse would take out the phone system central offices anyway since none of it is tube powered making your rotary phone dead too. Same with the radio stations, most of that is computerized anyway. I doubt the transmitters use tubes either.
 
BrianShaw said:
I thought you were only 45, Bill. You might get lucky enough to live to be 96... or more.

Tell that to my knees. I would not consider myself 'lucky' if I made it to 96.

Others before us have done it. Remember, we ARE embarking on the era of digital x-rays and with the superiority of digital vs film x-rays medical science will probably be able to prolong your life longer than you currently expect!

Not as long as I can point a firearm at them, they won't.

Somebody once decided that longer life = better life. I think I get some input, since it is my life and all.

Re: the real topic... this is just one more hobby going right down the toilet because of 'improved technology'. First is was shortwave radio broadcasting being replaced by satellite broadcasting, then it was control-line model airplanes being replaced by radio control, then it was radio control flying being curtailed by "obstruction of a local airport", and now it's film photography on the way out. I'm starting to feel like a dinosaur. I'm only 49.8 year old, but too far out of shape to seriousl take up basketball!

I absolutely agree with you! I don't hate film, I love film. Strange as that may sound. And I like LP records, prefer them over CD's. And I have an R2R tape player - QUADRAPHONIC!

But I also have a DSLR and I want to rewire my car to run Linux OS for all onboard systems.

Life just keeps getting weirder.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
Bryan Lee said:

Bill, I dont understand what your going on about this time, Last week you called me a Tokyo Rose which is a acusation of treason for posting a picture


Not for posting a picture. I've done a lot of work on this subject since then. I'm willing to admit you may have simply been a patsy. But the viral marketing of terror is real, and sorry if you don't like it. I'm going to keep pointing it out where I see it.

and this week you seem to be proud and enthusiastic about a American Corperation "Eastmon Kodak" fireing thousands of employees and taking the money from little old ladys like my 90 year old grandma and investing it in a communist country.

Is that what it seems I am proud of? How little you understand what I said. And if someone has been taking money away from your 90-year-old grandmother, you should call the police and have them arrested. Theft is illegal in most countries.

My last four rolls of Codak are sitting on my shelf, In the future ill spend my money on film from new democratic countries like the Ukraine, Chech Republic, Poland, ????? and buy old school Japanese stuff. As for digital I can get more than I can handle right here in Thailand, Malaysia, and Singapore.

Sounds like a plan. Good for you!

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
seeing as how this thread is now WAYYYYYYYYYYYY OT (it really should be titled something like "Film Is Dead" or "Bill Vs The Rest Of RFF" 😀 ) I'm going to paraphrase the speech from Baz Luhrmann's "Everybody's Free":
Accept certain inalienable truths, prices will rise, politicians will
philander, film is dead, you too will get old; and when you do you’ll fantasize
that when you were young prices were reasonable, politicians were
noble, film was far superior to digital and children respected their elders.

I think everyone should chill and instead of wasting time arguing or bemoaning the death of film; go out and shoot film while it's still available and you still can.

Dave
 
Yawn. All this "film is dead talk" is putting me in a sour mood. You know what? Nikon, Canon, Leica, Cosina, Kodak, Fuji, Minolta, Agfa and Pentax can all kiss my a$$.

I'll dump film AND digital, sell my PC and go back into painting.

I'm Titian Peale in reverse! Albert Bierstadt is my hero! Cartier-Bresson was a pretender! Bring me my easel and my chromium yellow! Let's change this to "palette users forum"! Where is my horsehair brush?

We are all, in a sense, artists. If one medium or tool goes away we will replace it with something else.
 
Rob said:
Originally Posted by copake_ham
Now your crackin'. And don't forget to put a tube-radio down there together with the rotary-dial phone! Be prepared, that someboy's motto!

I wonder if a nuke pulse would take out the phone system central offices anyway since none of it is tube powered making your rotary phone dead too. Same with the radio stations, most of that is computerized anyway. I doubt the transmitters use tubes either.

Err...you do realize that my post was intended to be humorous, right? 😀

Anyway , the "ham" part of copake_ham refers to amateur radio, not the rump of a pig. Besides photography, it is another of my avocational intersts.

There is a segment of ham radio ops who love tinkering with old tube gear and preserve them as lovingly as folks here do their old Leicas, Canons and Nikons etc.

After the "big one"* and the accompanying EMP these folks expect to be able to crank up their generators and communicate with the tube gear that is presumably immune to the pulse.

Of course, that's only a viable strategy if they survive! 😱

*BTW: when is that "big one" coming? I've been waiting since grade school back in the 1950's when they made us line up in the hallways with our coats over our heads!
 
Film started to die the day the Macintosh was introduced. That's long before digital cameras. The Macintosh replaced millions of square feet of graphic arts films used to produce printed products with a digital approach.

I have experienced this first hand. I am film manufacturing process engineer by training and education. Worked for duPont in Rochester, NY producing graphics arts films. That plant is now a stone parking lot. All demolished. Across the street is the vacant 3M plant that coated graphic arts films. This happened more than 15 to 20 years ago.

There was so much of that film to be sold, and the sizes so big - like 30 x 40 inches, it was a huge market. Now all that remains is imagesetter film and that will be replaced with direct to plate completely soon, then direct to press.

Nikon's announcement is no surprise to me, just the natural progression of events I attribute to the Macintosh. And watching the latest keynote reveals that probably web construction will go the same way. And I still admire Jobs for his vision too. I love the Mac.

Now I sell insurance in South Florida. Hurricanes are on the rise! I think we will always need that product.

You just have to follow the market. I would rather see Nikon drop film cameras and come out with some really killer digital cameras in the future rather than end up a third-rate or 4th rate company playing me-too. So I applaud the Nikon excutives for their vision.
Nikon brought back the rangefinder after 50 years - who knows what they will do in the future - no one would have predicted that.

The Japanese are very good at understanding the basic business premise. "We must make money!"

I want to see a company come out with a digital system that has no ties to film, other than it produced killer images where one can get past all the technology and focus on the subject at hand and the image to be made so the camera is transparent. I have not seen that yet in digital, but I always hear people referring to their M3's that way.
 
copake_ham said:
Anyway , the "ham" part of copake_ham refers to amateur radio, not the rump of a pig. Besides photography, it is another of my avocational intersts.

There is a segment of ham radio ops who love tinkering with old tube gear and preserve them as lovingly as folks here do their old Leicas, Canons and Nikons etc.

QSL the last QSO 10 over 10. Had to QSY to work-related activities; lots of QRM from the boss; took some time to get him to QRT. Boss QSY'd to a remote QTH so I can QSX RangeFiner Forum again.

Maybe you have come up with the perfect idea for me... I can give up photography and restore my SX-28 "boat anchor".

QRX.

Drat... another business related QSO about to start... must QRT
 
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