aquaman75
Member
Hello.
First of all I would like to apologize for my bad English.
I don't speak english since my school days.
Last 2 years I use two Nikon FM3 with 50 1.4 and 24 2.8.
I am very happy with this combo, the quality of the lenses fully satisfies me , but I am not entirely happy with the ergonomics of the camera. I shot mainly in portrait mode and I think I would feel much more comfortable with the "holding hands position" of the NIKON S3/SP.
Also, I think the focus wheel is perfect for me.
My idea is to buy the S3 2000/50 now and later SP 2005/35 exchanging lenses .
That is, S3/35 and SP/50 .
So, i will pair the 35 (wide shots where the composition is less important than with 50) with the S3 that haven't parallax correction .
My question , and this the reason why I open this post , is to know your opinion on the use of SP and S3 with 50 1.4 for portraits.
My main fear is the parallax error to compose .
For example , dividing the portraits I usually do :
1. Full body
2. Body 3/4
3. Half body
4 . "Chest" plane
5. Head shot
Do you think that I can successfully compose these portraits with both SP and S3 ? Only SP with parallax correction ? No one?
Thank you very much for your time.
Alberto
First of all I would like to apologize for my bad English.
I don't speak english since my school days.
Last 2 years I use two Nikon FM3 with 50 1.4 and 24 2.8.
I am very happy with this combo, the quality of the lenses fully satisfies me , but I am not entirely happy with the ergonomics of the camera. I shot mainly in portrait mode and I think I would feel much more comfortable with the "holding hands position" of the NIKON S3/SP.
Also, I think the focus wheel is perfect for me.
My idea is to buy the S3 2000/50 now and later SP 2005/35 exchanging lenses .
That is, S3/35 and SP/50 .
So, i will pair the 35 (wide shots where the composition is less important than with 50) with the S3 that haven't parallax correction .
My question , and this the reason why I open this post , is to know your opinion on the use of SP and S3 with 50 1.4 for portraits.
My main fear is the parallax error to compose .
For example , dividing the portraits I usually do :
1. Full body
2. Body 3/4
3. Half body
4 . "Chest" plane
5. Head shot
Do you think that I can successfully compose these portraits with both SP and S3 ? Only SP with parallax correction ? No one?
Thank you very much for your time.
Alberto
x-ray
Veteran
I owned a S3 2000 for several years and have used the SP back in the 60's. I'm a Leica M user to this day but must say I prefer an slr to RF for portraits. I find RF framing at best to be a guessing game. Frame lines aren't accurate as the angle of view that the lens sees changes with focus distance. I'm not talking parallax, the actual angle of view changes so your frame lines might be accurate close to infinity but not up close or they may be fairly accurate close but not at infinity.
IMO shooting with an slr give me a more attached intimate feeling between me and my subject where as an RF makes me feel detached. This can be good or bad depending on the subject.
My choices for portraits are one of my Nikon slr bodies with a 35, 50, 85 or 105 depending on what I'm shooting. The 85 1.4D is my favorite with my 105 and 50 a close second.
IMO shooting with an slr give me a more attached intimate feeling between me and my subject where as an RF makes me feel detached. This can be good or bad depending on the subject.
My choices for portraits are one of my Nikon slr bodies with a 35, 50, 85 or 105 depending on what I'm shooting. The 85 1.4D is my favorite with my 105 and 50 a close second.
furcafe
Veteran
In my experience, shots type #3, #4, & #5 may present parallax problems in a camera with a fixed finder/frames like the S3 if you don't have a lot of experience using the camera & can't accurately pre-visualize. In other words, if you've never used a rangefinder or other non-SLR camera before, you may want to practice with a few rolls first.
None of the shots should present major parallax problems using the SP. However, shot type #5 would be difficult for a 50mm on any Nikon RF simply because of the 50mm field of view at their closest focus distance.
None of the shots should present major parallax problems using the SP. However, shot type #5 would be difficult for a 50mm on any Nikon RF simply because of the 50mm field of view at their closest focus distance.
Corran
Well-known
Just get a nice used SP and 35/50/85 (or 105).
Not sure why you would buy a $5,000-$8,000 kit to just start out with shooting the Nikon RF system. You could get the SP and 35/1.8, 50/1.4, and 85/2 for around $2,000.
Personally, having recently bought some Leica stuff, I find the Nikon SP to have more accurate framelines...and a better finder. In my opinion, of course.
Not sure why you would buy a $5,000-$8,000 kit to just start out with shooting the Nikon RF system. You could get the SP and 35/1.8, 50/1.4, and 85/2 for around $2,000.
Personally, having recently bought some Leica stuff, I find the Nikon SP to have more accurate framelines...and a better finder. In my opinion, of course.
DoxLeica
Member
I have used Nikon RFs and SLRs for 50 years! My advice is to keep your present camera and lenses and add a Nikkor 85mm 1.8. Without any doubt you can then make outstanding portraits of any type. One key factor in making portraits is being comfortable with your equipment. If you are your subject will sense that and be comfortable too.
Jan Pedersen
Well-known
I don't think there are better cameras for portraits than SLR's. I have several Nikon SLR cameras and one S3 and would never pick the S3 for portraits if i had one of the other cameras available. With expereience i am sure you can overcome the obvious paralax issues at close range but there will always be a little uncertainty about composition with the rangefinder.
The 50/1.4 Millenium is an outstanding lens though but not sure it is any better than other top of the line 50mm lenses for SLR cameras.
The 50/1.4 Millenium is an outstanding lens though but not sure it is any better than other top of the line 50mm lenses for SLR cameras.
Corran
Well-known
The Millenium, at least from what I've looked at, is much better than any of the Nikon SLR 50/1.4 (or 1.2) lenses at the widest aperture. All the fast 50's I've used have spherical aberrations and "glow" at f/1.4 while the Millenium is just about perfect, with none of that issue. Might not be significantly sharper but the glow is noticeably better.
lonemantis
Well-known
To be completely honest, I think a Nikon RF (especially a limited edition one) would be a pretty big waste of money if better portraits or ergonomics are your goal.
The shots you posted use a lot of selective DOF and precise framing at close distances, both of which RFs are not great at. The S3 in particular has no parallax correction which makes closeup framing even worse.
You already have one of the best film SLRs ever made - I'd focus more on improving your technique rather than spending money. And if you want something to buy, maybe consider a longer lens like an 85 or 105, or a camera grip/motor drive to help hold it.
The shots you posted use a lot of selective DOF and precise framing at close distances, both of which RFs are not great at. The S3 in particular has no parallax correction which makes closeup framing even worse.
You already have one of the best film SLRs ever made - I'd focus more on improving your technique rather than spending money. And if you want something to buy, maybe consider a longer lens like an 85 or 105, or a camera grip/motor drive to help hold it.
furcafe
Veteran
I would basically agree.
I'm not familiar w/the FM3 or its control layout & I'm not sure what Alberto (the OP) means by "holding hands" position.
However, if he means that when he holds the camera in portrait mode the shutter release is at the bottom & he uses his thumb to release (the position recommended by Zeiss Ikon for the Contax RFs & the way I prefer to shoot in portrait mode), then the offset position of the shutter release on the Nikon RFs (holdover from basing the shutter on the "Barnack" Leicas) may be indeed be ergonomically more comfortable. The cheapest solution, then, would be to use an F body, which preserves the top deck layout of the Nikon RFs on an SLR.
I'm not familiar w/the FM3 or its control layout & I'm not sure what Alberto (the OP) means by "holding hands" position.
However, if he means that when he holds the camera in portrait mode the shutter release is at the bottom & he uses his thumb to release (the position recommended by Zeiss Ikon for the Contax RFs & the way I prefer to shoot in portrait mode), then the offset position of the shutter release on the Nikon RFs (holdover from basing the shutter on the "Barnack" Leicas) may be indeed be ergonomically more comfortable. The cheapest solution, then, would be to use an F body, which preserves the top deck layout of the Nikon RFs on an SLR.
Livesteamer
Well-known
A few years ago I had a long period of doing infant and toddler portraits with a rangefinder. I was using a Leica M6 with the .85 finder and the 50mm Summilux asph. Set the lens to 1.4 and .7 meters, use the highest shutter speed possible and move in and out until the toddlers eyes were in focus. Took hundreds of photos over several years in a church nursery and the people loved the photos.
This was a special case. When you have a picture of a cute baby and the eyes are sharp and in focus, people don't notice if the framing is a little off. For general portrait work an slr is probably better. Joe
This was a special case. When you have a picture of a cute baby and the eyes are sharp and in focus, people don't notice if the framing is a little off. For general portrait work an slr is probably better. Joe
VinceC
Veteran
I've done hundreds if not thousands of portraits with the set-up described by the original poster.
The 50mm and 35mm lenses are ideal for the focus wheel on an SP/S3. The 50mm Millennium and 35mm SP-2005 lens are also two of the finest lenses ever made.
The 35mm framelines on the S3 show visual evidence that parallax is a very minor problem at that focal length. The S3 is a dream camera with a 35mm lens ... makes me feel very immersed and intimate. Beware, however, if you wear eyeglasses, that it is hard to see all the frame corners. You also risk scratching your glasses.
I really, really, really, really like the feeling of connection I have with the person when using a Nikon RF to shoot portraits ... the 1:1 lifesize viewfinder and the small size of the camera make me feel much more connected to the individual, not hiding behind the oversize mechanism of an SLR with a non-lifesize viewfinder (The one exception to this is using an 85/2 on an SLR ... the subject doesn't usually realize it's a telephoto lens and so he/she isn't as self-conscious that you are shooting an extreme close-up).
Focus on a Nikon RF is very, very precise, moreso than with an SLR. Just focus on the eyes then compose.
As mentioned, an 85 or 105 lens would round out a Nikon lens kit for portraits -- can't be beat wide open for portraits.
Be aware that the minimum focus distance of 3 feet makes Shot #5 impossible with a 50mm lens (but not with a 105)
The 50mm and 35mm lenses are ideal for the focus wheel on an SP/S3. The 50mm Millennium and 35mm SP-2005 lens are also two of the finest lenses ever made.
The 35mm framelines on the S3 show visual evidence that parallax is a very minor problem at that focal length. The S3 is a dream camera with a 35mm lens ... makes me feel very immersed and intimate. Beware, however, if you wear eyeglasses, that it is hard to see all the frame corners. You also risk scratching your glasses.
I really, really, really, really like the feeling of connection I have with the person when using a Nikon RF to shoot portraits ... the 1:1 lifesize viewfinder and the small size of the camera make me feel much more connected to the individual, not hiding behind the oversize mechanism of an SLR with a non-lifesize viewfinder (The one exception to this is using an 85/2 on an SLR ... the subject doesn't usually realize it's a telephoto lens and so he/she isn't as self-conscious that you are shooting an extreme close-up).
Focus on a Nikon RF is very, very precise, moreso than with an SLR. Just focus on the eyes then compose.
As mentioned, an 85 or 105 lens would round out a Nikon lens kit for portraits -- can't be beat wide open for portraits.
Be aware that the minimum focus distance of 3 feet makes Shot #5 impossible with a 50mm lens (but not with a 105)
x-ray
Veteran
I to have shot thousands of portraits with my Leicas and some with the Nikon S3. Both great cameras and certainly you can make fine portraits with them but IMO an RF is not the best or easiest way to do portraits.
I second the one post suggesting you use your FM3 and add an 85 or 105.
I've owned several Nikkor 85's, the f2, early 1.8, the 1.8D and currently have the 1.4 D and 1.8 G.
You won't be able to use G lenses on you FM3 but the 85 1.4 is a stunning lens and has super thin DOF wide open. I've used a friends manual focus AIS version and it's equally fine. The 85 1.8 D is a killer fine lens too and really theres nothing shabby about the original 1.8 AI or the tiny F2.
I'm also a big fan of the 105 2.5 in both the Sonnar and late version. They are simply stunning lenses.
I second the one post suggesting you use your FM3 and add an 85 or 105.
I've owned several Nikkor 85's, the f2, early 1.8, the 1.8D and currently have the 1.4 D and 1.8 G.
You won't be able to use G lenses on you FM3 but the 85 1.4 is a stunning lens and has super thin DOF wide open. I've used a friends manual focus AIS version and it's equally fine. The 85 1.8 D is a killer fine lens too and really theres nothing shabby about the original 1.8 AI or the tiny F2.
I'm also a big fan of the 105 2.5 in both the Sonnar and late version. They are simply stunning lenses.
aquaman75
Member
Thank you very much for your answers. They've really been a great help to me. I have read very carefully all your comments and I think I could draw some conclusions.
It seems clear that, at least technically, an SLR is a machine with a better predisposition for portraits.
I could also understand that with a RF without parallax correction (Nikon S3) compose correctly can be complicated.
The Nikon SP with parallax correction might work, although not ideal for portrait (or yes) machine.
The problem regarding the S3 2005 is its limited availability and high price.
Right now is a very high price for my pocket.
Original models are discarded because I do not like buying antiques. (personal mania)
On the other side is the ergonomics of the camera. A very important issue for me.
Feeling comfortable with the camera is something I value and I give a lot of importance.
When I referred to the "holding hands position" , wanted to say that (in portrait mode) I take the camera so that the shutter is down and right. This way I can put my eye to the viewfinder, taking elbows close to the body and shoulders are relaxed and without stress.
Also. in the case of S3/SP I can hold the camera with both hands and focus with a finger, something like a Leica mount a lens with "focus tab".
I hope I could express well with my bad English school.
For all this, I have made the decision to give an opportunity to a rangefinder camera.
Since S3 can not work and the SP is very hard to find (and expensive) I opted for a Leica to try.
It has crossed my path a mint M6 TTL at a great price (950€) and tonight or tomorrow morning will be in my hands.
Now I'm looking for a Type 4 50 Summicron with focus tab.
I always heard that try a Leica is free. If you do not like you can sell it fast.
So I'm going to try it.
Again, thank you very much for your invaluable help.
Regards!
It seems clear that, at least technically, an SLR is a machine with a better predisposition for portraits.
I could also understand that with a RF without parallax correction (Nikon S3) compose correctly can be complicated.
The Nikon SP with parallax correction might work, although not ideal for portrait (or yes) machine.
The problem regarding the S3 2005 is its limited availability and high price.
Right now is a very high price for my pocket.
Original models are discarded because I do not like buying antiques. (personal mania)
On the other side is the ergonomics of the camera. A very important issue for me.
Feeling comfortable with the camera is something I value and I give a lot of importance.
When I referred to the "holding hands position" , wanted to say that (in portrait mode) I take the camera so that the shutter is down and right. This way I can put my eye to the viewfinder, taking elbows close to the body and shoulders are relaxed and without stress.
Also. in the case of S3/SP I can hold the camera with both hands and focus with a finger, something like a Leica mount a lens with "focus tab".
I hope I could express well with my bad English school.
For all this, I have made the decision to give an opportunity to a rangefinder camera.
Since S3 can not work and the SP is very hard to find (and expensive) I opted for a Leica to try.
It has crossed my path a mint M6 TTL at a great price (950€) and tonight or tomorrow morning will be in my hands.
Now I'm looking for a Type 4 50 Summicron with focus tab.
I always heard that try a Leica is free. If you do not like you can sell it fast.
So I'm going to try it.
Again, thank you very much for your invaluable help.
Regards!
Livesteamer
Well-known
Congratulations and Good Luck. The advantage of the rangefinder for portrait work is precise focus. It is my preferred choice as I have trouble focusing an slr and autofocus does not know where I want to focus. Joe
BillBingham2
Registered User
Alberto,
Take a look at a Nikon S2 with a 50mm on her. Less money to give it try and see how you like the feel. If you look back a few years there was a great thread testing Nikon RF 50s. Look in this subform for stuff by Jonmanjiro.
I think you will really like the feel of the focusing wheel, I did.
FWIW (For What It's Worth), I switched from Leica Ms to Nikon Ss and was very happy. Next to the one-handed-ness of the S2, the fact that the focusing of the lenses went the right way allowed me to concentrate on the picture. I started life with a Nikkormat and have stuck with them for SLRs.
B2
Your work with your FM3 is good, I understand the pull to try RF, it is very strong.
Take a look at a Nikon S2 with a 50mm on her. Less money to give it try and see how you like the feel. If you look back a few years there was a great thread testing Nikon RF 50s. Look in this subform for stuff by Jonmanjiro.
I think you will really like the feel of the focusing wheel, I did.
FWIW (For What It's Worth), I switched from Leica Ms to Nikon Ss and was very happy. Next to the one-handed-ness of the S2, the fact that the focusing of the lenses went the right way allowed me to concentrate on the picture. I started life with a Nikkormat and have stuck with them for SLRs.
B2
Your work with your FM3 is good, I understand the pull to try RF, it is very strong.
Highway 61
Revisited
The portrait I posted on the last page of the "March, Nikon RF month !" thread (post #292) was shot at the closest focusing distance with a classic Nikon S3 and a Nikkor-H-C 50/2 lens. Focus on the subject's eye. No parallax issue (the photo has not been reframed or cropped for posting).
I have an SP but never experienced any problem with either my S2 or S3 viewfinders without parallax compensation.
I have an SP but never experienced any problem with either my S2 or S3 viewfinders without parallax compensation.
VinceC
Veteran
I was pretty surprised by the number of folks here who told the original poster to go get an SLR for portraits. ?????? No wonder he decided to try a Leica instead.
The Nikon SP/S3 are the definitive portrait cameras. 1:1 finders and wheel focus are exceptional features.
The Nikon SP/S3 are the definitive portrait cameras. 1:1 finders and wheel focus are exceptional features.
VinceC
Veteran
Not to mention lenses optimized for portrait distances.
