Norwegian fighter pilots armed with leicas

[Olsen]

Royal Norwegian Airforce bought F-104G Starfighters back in 63' from USA. The airforce soon put them into what they were best at; intercepting high flying Soviet 'Badgers'and and 'Mandrakes' at altitudes above 48.000 ft - record breaking at the time. Intercepting aircrafts at as high as 60.000 ft demanded special preasure suits and all, but were dropped since they were unpractical (if you turned your head you saw the inside of the helmet), unsafe after an ejection (they could not be combined with sea rescue suits) and uncomfortable to wear for hours on a watch (to take a pee demanded that the whole suit had to come off). So RNAF decided that as long as time at interceptor maneuvers above 48.000 ft were no longer than 90 seconds, the pilots wore ordinary G-suit with cold sea rescue capability. - Most of the operation were flown over water holding 5 degrees C, it could kill you in minutes.

Ofcause, the main purpose of an intercept of a Sovjet plane back in the Cold War was to identify it, sometimes, but seldome; give them a warning that they were approaching norwegian airpace (during the 40 years long Cold War, no Sovjet war plane ever intruded into norwegian airspace intentionally, - and usually waved back at the norwegian pilots with a friendly grin) and take pictures of them.

These pictures were important. RNAF took many of the exotic and 'first' pictures of Sovjet war planes that were published during the Cold War. Like of the very fast and high flying 'Foxbat'. Impossible to do if not the F-104G were used (our F-5 and F-16 could not fly so high) and the picture taking were dependant on that 'the pilot could take pictures'. With a Leica. Food for thought: - If these norwegian airforce Leica's were specially marked - they most likely were, and exists in private hands - very few, if any might do, - they would be very valuable collectors items.

Does anyone here know of such 'airforce Leicas'? I would guess that other airforces might have used Leicas for the same purpose.

Reading about this, one has to smile of that the pilot were trained to handle complex and dangerous machines as a Mach 2 fighter,- but had problems handling a manual camera. Many pictures were 'unreadable' due to bad photography. Here is a link to a 'historical' norwegian F-104G site that tells the story:

http://www.starfighter.no/web/hi-alt.html

 

[Olsen]

As you mention, Erik: Most likely, the cameras are still in the RNAF posession. One way they can got into private hands are through regular auctions of surplus military equipment, but I find this a very little likely for equipment like cameras. Or they get stolen. They can also have been given away as presents. I'll come back to this.

I know that many norwegian merchant ships doing regular trips to ex. Sovjet Union, Libya etc. (the whole crew of m/s 'Germa Lionel' was arrested in Tripoli and one crew member died during interrogation) brought cameras with them (and possibly advanced listening devices as well). Usually, Nikon's with a 180 mm tele lense. These cameras were 'provided by the CIA', it was said, and most of them dissappared - got stolen, simply. These ships could risk inspections from both customs and the military and to have cameras marked with 'The property of the Central Intelligence Agency' would compromise the operation and the crew would stand the risk of internment. I have seen several of, alledgedly, of such Nikons on the 2.hand market in Norway.

A few of these 'RNAF Leicas' might have been given away as gifts. I have in my possession the steering wheel and some silverwhare from the norwegian naval ship Glaisdale - that among others participated in the Normandie landing in WWII, which my uncle , who was a admiral back in the 70' and 80', and were presented these as gifts when leaving command. The RNAF Leicas might also have been given away as gifts to high officers - or political figures.

 

[rover]

RNAF with Leicas, Swedish AF I believe with Hasselblads. You guys in Scandinavia fly in style.

 

[EmilGil]

Actually, Victor Hasselblad started his camera business when a Swedish airforce officer showed him a captured German air reconnaissance camera:

-Can you make something like this, Mr Hasselblad?
-No, but I can make something better.

The Swedish Leicas were primarily used by the ground forces, not the AF.

 

[Olsen]

Actually, Victor Hasselblad started his camera business when a Swedish airforce officer showed him a captured German air reconnaissance camera:

-Can you make something like this, Mr Hasselblad?
-No, but I can make something better.

The Swedish Leicas were primarily used by the ground forces, not the AF.

This was indeed the case.

In the months before Norway was attacked by the germans (9.th of April 1940) Luftwaffe sent some high and fast flying - with Daimler Benz 600 series engines - Dornier photo recc planes over Norway. They flew up the west coast, over the harbours of Stavanger and Bergen, over the mountains, then photographing Oslo harbour. The mission was to collect intelligence about shipping movements in and out of these harbours. Info which were passed on the the u-boat fleet.

These Dorniers were capable of flying much higher - more than 33.000 ft - and faster than anything the norwegian airforce were able to throw against them - or the allies for that matter. With no norwegian radar early warning systems it was an easy trade for the germans.

But when the invation was well in swing the norwegian airforce managed to get a few shots at one of these photo recce planes. By then, the germans were planning the attack on France and had moved their most advanced Dornier planes to the Ruhr area. When a slower and lower flying version were being used in Norway. One of the Dorniers took some fire above the Oslo Fjord and managed to fly to Småland in Sweden were it did a forced landing in a field killing two of the crew in the process.

Afraid of being pulled into the war the swedes duly followed german demands that crew members as well as maps, order of battle, code books etc. were to be delivered back to Germany, - although the swedes had the right to intern the crew and keep all material in accordance with international law at the time. But the germans never asked for the plane wreak or any equipment thereof. As the camera.

To what I know, the camera in the plane was something similar to today's Hasselblad SWC with a Carl Zeiss Biogon lense with, which was a military secret back then; 'multi coating'. The swedes with an aircraft industry of it's own showed great interest in this plane (and others) which crashed or landed in neutral Sweden. They brought the camera to Victor Hasselblad, who run the Kodak import at the time, and asked him if he could design a similar camera for the swedish airforce. According to tradition he answered; 'not only that, I can make you a better one'.

After the war Victor Hasselblad had improved his camera design and flew to the USA and by Kodak contacts launched his product on the american market. It turned out to be a great success and by the mid 70' he was one of Sweden's richest men.

Not so well known is it that Victor Hasselblad took contact with Carl Zeiss already during the war - swedish businessmen did regular business with the germans and could come and go, in and out of Germany, as they pleased.

 

[ZeissFan]

All of these are very interesting stories.

 

[Olsen]

Actually, the swedes had some Leicas too.

This one was sold on an auction in Sweden in 2005 for 200 000 SEK or 33 000$.
Only 100 made:

http://www.lpfoto.se/swe/auktioner/objectWinInfo.asp?auktionsnamn=Auktion%2023%20S%F6ndagen%20den%2011%20december%202005&objektnr=282

This one was sold last year at the same auction house for 62 000Sek or 10000$:

http://www.lpfoto.se/swe/auktioner/objectWinInfo.asp?auktionsnamn=Auktion%2025%20S%F6ndagen%20den%203%20december%202006&objektnr=385

It is in English under the Swedish text.



Edit: Olsen, it could happen that some of the cameras is in museums now? Like Norsk luftfartsmuseum?

Thanks for the links. It shows that airforce Leicas could be worth a lot.

 

[Socke]

Not so well known is it that Victor Hasselblad took contact with Carl Zeiss already during the war - swedish businessmen did regular business with the germans and could come and go, in and out of Germany, as they pleased.

He did an internship at Zeiss in the early 1930s, and another one at Kodak.
The first civilian post war Hasselblad Cameras where equipped with Kodak lenses because Zeiss couldn't produce lenses of the required quality.

http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B58B9/allBySubject/507B24C53C1DE380C1256C9100511CE3

 

[Olsen]

He did an internship at Zeiss in the early 1930s, and another one at Kodak.
The first civilian post war Hasselblad Cameras where equipped with Kodak lenses because Zeiss couldn't produce lenses of the required quality.

http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B58B9/allBySubject/507B24C53C1DE380C1256C9100511CE3

This could very well be. Because Carl Zeiss (Jena) was behind russian lines after the war and it took some time before they established a plant in 'West Germany'.

 

[Limpovitj]

To what I know, the camera in the plane was something similar to today's Hasselblad SWC with a Carl Zeiss Biogon lense with, which was a military secret back then; 'multi coating'. The swedes with an aircraft industry of it's own showed great interest in this plane (and others) which crashed or landed in neutral Sweden. They brought the camera to Victor Hasselblad, who run the Kodak import at the time, and asked him if he could design a similar camera for the swedish airforce. According to tradition he answered; 'not only that, I can make you a better one'.

I've heard, and read, several versions of this story (yes, I'm Swedish...), but I've never heard the 'multi-coating' bit before, and frankly, I find it a bit hard to believe. Single coating (state-of-the-art 40s technology!), yes, perhaps, but multi coating? Also, the super-wide Biogon in an SWC is an early 50s design, if I remember correctly, and a different design than the 30s Biogon (like the Contax 35mm).

Also, the 'original Hasselblad', Hasselblad HK7 (HK for Handkamera (yes, hand camera), by the way), wasn't a wide-angle camera. I'll try to post a picture of one below. This one was sold at a Swedish auction a while back, and was equipped with a Zeiss Tessar 135/4.5. It shot 7x9, I suppose on 70mm rollfilm. But, then again, I have no idea how much the HK7 differed from the German original.

 

[Limpovitj]

...and HERE is another one!

 

[flyingoko]

The Swedish Leicas were primarily used by the ground forces, not the AF.

Are you talking black IIIgs? Rogliatti mentions these in his books as both "Swedish army" and "Swedish Air Force". He has a few pics, three crowns engraved on back of camera.

Michael

 

[EmilGil]

I'm sure Mr Rogliatti knows better than I do, the ones I've seen (pics only) have been army issue. They may very well have been used in the airforce as well.

 

[Tom A]

The special order black IIIf's and IIIg's (about 125 of each) with the three crowns engraved on them were made for the Swedish Army, although the military establsihment in Sweden is less fractionalized than most so some ended up with the Air Force too. After several decades these cameras were sold at an auction for $150 each (in 1975 I think). A friend of mine bought 10 of each, as well as a box of black paint 50 Elmar 50f3.5's. Over the years he slowly sold them off for a good profit. Later on the military discovered a box of 40 90mm 2.8 Elmarits and offered them to him. They were brand new, in the box and in batches of 10 with sequential serial numbers. He had to pay almost $180 each for them, but he bit the bullet and paid up. It was the three crowns engraved on the barrel's that clinched the deal!
Some years ago I had a IIIf RD painted black and I am thinking of having 4 crowns engraved on the back and call it "Inflation"
There was an interesting variant of the Hasselblad made for the Swedish Navy - it had a 250 mm lens permanently attached and came in its own carrying box. It was made for the coastal defense force (Kustbevakningen) and it primary function was to take pictures of russian subs and so called "fishing boats" entering Swedish coastal waters. Most of these fishing boats had antenna arrays that would shame any SETI research facility.

 

[KoNickon]

An extremely interesting thread, folks. Thanks.

 

[Xmas]

Tom A

If a three kronar leica is valuable how much would a 5ive kronar be worth.

Noel

 

[Tom A]

In spite of Sweden's reluctance to join the Euro, maybe we should convert the 3 kronor to Euro and have them re-engraved as "50 cents".
Another piece of trivia, the black IIIf's and IIIg's were "kaltefest" cameras. They had low temperature grease and different ball bearings. If you have crawled around in the snow in northern Sweden in the winter trying to catch "Lute-fisk" smugglers from Norway, you would want that! Oh, maybe they were trying to stop the export of "surstromming" instead. This is a Swedish delicatessen that consists of fermented herrings in slowly expanding tin cans. Lease contracts and some airlines prohibit this product from being eaten or transported! If you have ever smelled it, you know why!

 

[erikhaugsby]

Another piece of trivia, the black IIIf's and IIIg's were "kaltefest" cameras. They had low temperature grease and different ball bearings.

Is this where the "K" that proceeded Leica serial numbers (and was sometimes on the shutter) on German military bodies originated from?

 

[Sisyphus]

Where is Norway again? They have an Airforce? No wonder the Middle East is such a mess!

 

[Tom A]

Is this where the "K" that proceeded Leica serial numbers (and was sometimes on the shutter) on German military bodies originated from?

The K marked shutter and bodies were made for the German Air Force "Luftwaffe" just before and during the ww 2. Most of these were gray paint as they were running out of chrome and needed that for other things. Some earlier ones were marked Luftwaffe or Heer(army) with chrome tops. Occasionally you see them with defaced markings as the US government would not allow returnihg GI's to bring back "loot" and took screwdrivers or grinders to top plates and lens barrels. There was also a small series made for the German Navy and sub marines. These are usually chrome with the Kriegsmarine or just a M engraved.
Some of the lenses developed during the war were interesting. The 85/1.5 Summarex was initially developed to be used in heinkel bombers as a "bomb-run" camera. Only a handful in black were made and very few survived .I have once owned one of these. It had extra large lugs on the front that allowed it to be snapped into a permanent "hood" in the bubble at the front of the Heinkel. My interest in war meorabilia is scant to say the least so anything like that is quickly traded off. For a while Vancouver wa awash in this stuff. Many british officers retired and moved to Vancouver and Victoria after the war and often brought things like that along. Once they died, their widows were stuck with this and no idea what is was worth. Somehow I become the arbitrator for this stuff - people offered them ludicrous amounts for them "Oh, it is an old camera - only worth $20 etc". In some cases I could get them $2-3000 for the same item! I dont mind a dealer low-balling within reason, but sometimes it is close to theft!
Once we did an experiment. An aquitance of mine had a nice little package. A boxed Nikon S3/boxed 50f1.1 and a boxed hood for the lens. This was 10 years ago when Nikon prices were skyrocketing. He took it to a well known store here in town and asked if they were interested.' Well, it is an old camera and not really worth anything. We will trade you against something more modern like a Nikon FM and a 50 f2". He declined and later sold the kit for roughly $14000!