rogue_designer
Reciprocity Failure
It's far easier in many cases to just feign an apology and move on, and continue shooting. In this case I just wanted to get the situation over with quickly and continue. No, I did not quit shooting.
In many cases, yes you are right. But there are certainly instances - when the worker persists, or asks you to delete images, or when you are detained, where moving on isn't an option.
On a personal note, I do have a problem with reinforcing the worker's incorrect notion that his stopping me from photographing is right. If I apologize and move on, he'll keep doing it - and to how many other people. How many other photographers will assume the worker is correct too? Fact is, apologizing legitimizes his actions. It's a culture of complicity and fear that I don't want to perpetuate.
Rprice
Camera Whore
Being Harrassed by ill informed law enforcement will always happen. No officer knows all the laws. Even having the law on your "Black Berry" is not cause for the officer to believe you, especially if he or she does not know the law, A person could be "faking the law". The officer in question should have had the law confirmed by the call to the station, I'm sure they have a list of the laws and access to the state as well as city and county laws on a computer. Shoddy police work is what that was, complicated also by the lack of control of the situation of the officer and the photographer in question. If may be the photographer would have approached the situation from an understanding point of view he would not have been arrested. Cooler heads always prevail in a tense situation.
I have been stopped I cant tell you how many times, I politely talk to the officer, and show him or her the photos I have took, I have always offered a card too, as well as aks for one in return too. Believe it of not it has worked out to may advantage more times then not. If the officer was being rude, just the aspect of me not being a smarty pants and quoteing laws has worked to my advantage. I have even offered prints to officers in the past as a small "thank you" for letting me continue.
Some times it is a good idea to back down too, I have before and appologised to the officer in question, again offering my card to them if they decide to take it. The benifit to me in the past has been not being arrested and having to go thru all the hassel that it would entail.
I have been stopped I cant tell you how many times, I politely talk to the officer, and show him or her the photos I have took, I have always offered a card too, as well as aks for one in return too. Believe it of not it has worked out to may advantage more times then not. If the officer was being rude, just the aspect of me not being a smarty pants and quoteing laws has worked to my advantage. I have even offered prints to officers in the past as a small "thank you" for letting me continue.
Some times it is a good idea to back down too, I have before and appologised to the officer in question, again offering my card to them if they decide to take it. The benifit to me in the past has been not being arrested and having to go thru all the hassel that it would entail.
rogue_designer
Reciprocity Failure
Deferring to Law enforcement does make sense. I have no desire to get arrested. If an actual police officer asks me to stop doing something and move, I probably will. Being stopped for something legal does rankle a bit though. And even when being polite, if there is a difference of opinion, the fact that it will come down to their word against mine on whether I was causing a disturbance, is annoying.
But I have very little patience for say, a transit worker who has decided to take it upon himself to police the station. Which happens frequently here. (Or a rent-a-security type). Obviously this is only when I'm actually in the right. If I'm breaking the law or on private property, then it's on my own head.
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MikeCassidy
Leica M3
Police and subways
Police and subways
I have little patience with the NYPD not informing their officers that it is no illegal to take pictures in the subway.
As for location, the subway is in fact an 'classic' spot to photograph: think Walker Evans.
As for showing the police my images; I shoot film.
Police and subways
I have little patience with the NYPD not informing their officers that it is no illegal to take pictures in the subway.
As for location, the subway is in fact an 'classic' spot to photograph: think Walker Evans.
As for showing the police my images; I shoot film.
nightfly
Well-known
Anyone have a bookmark for the law? Would like to print it out and keep it in my bag. Probably only thing it will get me is a baton shoved my @ss, but I'd like have it anyway.
aizan
Veteran
this is great news! i've been trying to get arrested to, you know, impress the girls...
icebear
Veteran
Maybe a printout of todya's NYT article would be helpful, I'm sure it's easier to understand than a legal text
.So far I've taken lots of pictures in the subway, carrying my photobag around and was only once asked at a checkpoint at Grand Central, about 2 years ago to open my bag at a table, they had a look inside and wished me a nice day.
And yeah, showing pictures and deleting them would also be a problem for me
.
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mich8261
Well-known
sherm,
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There have been several books of pictures taken on the NYC subway (here is one). One of my own favorite images was taken on the Q train going across the Manhattan bridge (see below). The point is this would be an unenforceable rule with the thousands of camera phones in the subway every day. It is also important to bring awareness because one day some overzealous transit officer or NYPD officer will wrongly acccuse/arrest a law abiding tourist and cause embarrassement to the city of New York. Tourism dollars are very important to New York, now more than ever.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There have been several books of pictures taken on the NYC subway (here is one). One of my own favorite images was taken on the Q train going across the Manhattan bridge (see below). The point is this would be an unenforceable rule with the thousands of camera phones in the subway every day. It is also important to bring awareness because one day some overzealous transit officer or NYPD officer will wrongly acccuse/arrest a law abiding tourist and cause embarrassement to the city of New York. Tourism dollars are very important to New York, now more than ever.
mich8261
Well-known
how about organizing a peaceful protest? Pick a day and go out in pairs with one person taking pictures, the other waiting to capture the police intervention on video or stills? I'd be up for that. We could inform the NYT journalist ahead of time.
I'm game.
I'm game.
icebear
Veteran
LOL , maybe you shouldn't team up with me, as I usually don't get into trouble, would be boring if the plan doesn't work out and there's nothing to report but two guys taking pictures until they run out of film or battery juice
.
mich8261
Well-known
I am not a provocateur. I just think it could drive the point home and get the MTA and NYPD to ensure their officers know the rules.
LOL , maybe you shouldn't team up with me, as I usually don't get into trouble, would be boring if the plan doesn't work out and there's nothing to report but two guys taking pictures until they run out of film or battery juice
marke
Well-known
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
"Of all the interesting places in NYC this gentleman could photograph he had to pick the subway"
Indeed, you do not say what one should photograph...you only comment strongly on what one chose to photograph. My mistake.
I was writing PEPPER, because i was meaning PEPPER. I was making a reference to the famous shot "Pepper no. 36" or whatever the number of the "succesful pepper shot" was, which i find rather boring but that's just me of course.
But if you prefer peeper, well, let's make it peeper. Whatever rocks your boat.
Indeed, you do not say what one should photograph...you only comment strongly on what one chose to photograph. My mistake.
I was writing PEPPER, because i was meaning PEPPER. I was making a reference to the famous shot "Pepper no. 36" or whatever the number of the "succesful pepper shot" was, which i find rather boring but that's just me of course.
But if you prefer peeper, well, let's make it peeper. Whatever rocks your boat.
figfoto
figfoto
One Thing I Have Learned From Being A Life Long Resident Of Nyc [and A Former Nycta Subway Conductor], Is That There Is Always 3 Sides Of A Story: What You Said Happened, What They Said Happened And what Really Happened.
This Was An Unfortunate Encounter Between A Train Buff And An Overzealous Cop.
Train Buffs Are Generally Harmless Individuals Who Love Trains And Take Pictures Of Them,[just Like Some Of Us Who Love Rangefinders And Take Pictures Of Whatever] But, Usually Follow The Rules. I Also Work For A 'mta Agency' And I Was Surprised That There Was No Law On The Books Concerning Photography, In Fact When A Train Reports Someone Photographing Or Video Tapeing On The Property, The Police Are Immediatly Dispatched. However, This Is The First Time I Have Heard Or Read About Someone Actually Being Arrested For Photographing Trains, [the Cops Usally Just Say 'you Can't Do That, Put It Away'], Which Leads Me To Think There Is Something More To The Story.
The Article Said He Was Cleared For Photographing, [apparently There Is No Law About Photography, And He Was In His Right] However They Are Letting The Other Tickets Stand, I Believe One Was For 'noise' And The Other For 'blocking The Platform'.
From My Experience Working As A Nyc Subway Conductor Back In The Late '80's, Some Individuals Loved To 'make A Scene' When The They Are Confronted By Cop And There Is An Audience To Watch It.
This Seems To Be The Case, Since A Supervisor [sargent] Was Present And Had Made The Decision To Have Him Arrested. This Was'nt A ' Hey You, Put The Camera Away' - 'oh I'm Sorry Officer I Did'nt Know' And Move On. This Guy Wanted To Make A Point, And He Did.
Now, Was The Cop Overzealous? Of Course He Was, Taking A Picture Of A Train On A Subway Platform Is Not Doing Ground Work For A Terrorist Organization. However Taking Pictures Of Say Yard Facilities, Tunnels Or Any Other Saftey Sensitve Areas Would Be, And The Cop Should Have Been Able To Tell The Difference.
Just Wanted To Give A Different View, Now Back To Taking Pictures.
This Was An Unfortunate Encounter Between A Train Buff And An Overzealous Cop.
Train Buffs Are Generally Harmless Individuals Who Love Trains And Take Pictures Of Them,[just Like Some Of Us Who Love Rangefinders And Take Pictures Of Whatever] But, Usually Follow The Rules. I Also Work For A 'mta Agency' And I Was Surprised That There Was No Law On The Books Concerning Photography, In Fact When A Train Reports Someone Photographing Or Video Tapeing On The Property, The Police Are Immediatly Dispatched. However, This Is The First Time I Have Heard Or Read About Someone Actually Being Arrested For Photographing Trains, [the Cops Usally Just Say 'you Can't Do That, Put It Away'], Which Leads Me To Think There Is Something More To The Story.
The Article Said He Was Cleared For Photographing, [apparently There Is No Law About Photography, And He Was In His Right] However They Are Letting The Other Tickets Stand, I Believe One Was For 'noise' And The Other For 'blocking The Platform'.
From My Experience Working As A Nyc Subway Conductor Back In The Late '80's, Some Individuals Loved To 'make A Scene' When The They Are Confronted By Cop And There Is An Audience To Watch It.
This Seems To Be The Case, Since A Supervisor [sargent] Was Present And Had Made The Decision To Have Him Arrested. This Was'nt A ' Hey You, Put The Camera Away' - 'oh I'm Sorry Officer I Did'nt Know' And Move On. This Guy Wanted To Make A Point, And He Did.
Now, Was The Cop Overzealous? Of Course He Was, Taking A Picture Of A Train On A Subway Platform Is Not Doing Ground Work For A Terrorist Organization. However Taking Pictures Of Say Yard Facilities, Tunnels Or Any Other Saftey Sensitve Areas Would Be, And The Cop Should Have Been Able To Tell The Difference.
Just Wanted To Give A Different View, Now Back To Taking Pictures.
dfoo
Well-known
Whats the deal with all the caps? Makes it very hard to read!
JRG
Well-known
"Whats the deal with all the caps? Makes it very hard to read!"
True. But no worse than posts typed entirely in a single case.
True. But no worse than posts typed entirely in a single case.
figfoto
figfoto
Sorry about that:
One thing I have learned from being a life long resident of NYC [and a former NYCTA Subway Conductor], is that there is always 3 Sides Of A Story: What you said Happened, What they said Happened and what Really Happened.
This was an unfortunate encounter between a Train Buff and an Overzealous Cop.
Train Buffs are generally harmless individuals who love Trains And Take Pictures Of Them,[just like some of us who love Rangefinders and take pictures of whatever] But, usually Follow The Rules. I also work for a 'MTA Agency' and I was surprised that there was No Law On The Books concerning Photography, in fact when a train reports someone photographing or video Taping on the Property, the Police are immediately dispatched. However, this is the first time I have heard or read about someone actually being Arrested For Photographing Trains, [the Cops usually just say 'You can't do that, Put It Away'], Which leads me to think there is something More To The Story.
The Article said he was cleared for photographing, [apparently there is No Law About Photography, and he was In His Right] However, they are letting the other Tickets Stand, I believe one was for 'Noise' and the other for 'Blocking The Platform'.
From my experience working as a NYC Subway Conductor back in the late '80's, some individuals loved to 'make a scene' when they are confronted by a Cop and there is an Audience To Watch It.
This seems to be the case, since a supervisor [sargent] was present and had made the decision to have him arrested. This was'nt a ' Hey You, Put The Camera Away' - 'Oh I'm Sorry Officer I Did'nt Know' and move on. This Guy wanted to make a point, and he did.
Now, was the Cop overzealous? Of course he was, taking a picture of a train on a Subway Platform is not doing ground work for a Terrorist Organization. However taking pictures of say Yard Facilities, Tunnels or any other Safety Sensitve Areas would be, and The Cop should have been able to Tell The Difference.
Just wanted to give a different view, Now Back To Taking Pictures.
One thing I have learned from being a life long resident of NYC [and a former NYCTA Subway Conductor], is that there is always 3 Sides Of A Story: What you said Happened, What they said Happened and what Really Happened.
This was an unfortunate encounter between a Train Buff and an Overzealous Cop.
Train Buffs are generally harmless individuals who love Trains And Take Pictures Of Them,[just like some of us who love Rangefinders and take pictures of whatever] But, usually Follow The Rules. I also work for a 'MTA Agency' and I was surprised that there was No Law On The Books concerning Photography, in fact when a train reports someone photographing or video Taping on the Property, the Police are immediately dispatched. However, this is the first time I have heard or read about someone actually being Arrested For Photographing Trains, [the Cops usually just say 'You can't do that, Put It Away'], Which leads me to think there is something More To The Story.
The Article said he was cleared for photographing, [apparently there is No Law About Photography, and he was In His Right] However, they are letting the other Tickets Stand, I believe one was for 'Noise' and the other for 'Blocking The Platform'.
From my experience working as a NYC Subway Conductor back in the late '80's, some individuals loved to 'make a scene' when they are confronted by a Cop and there is an Audience To Watch It.
This seems to be the case, since a supervisor [sargent] was present and had made the decision to have him arrested. This was'nt a ' Hey You, Put The Camera Away' - 'Oh I'm Sorry Officer I Did'nt Know' and move on. This Guy wanted to make a point, and he did.
Now, was the Cop overzealous? Of course he was, taking a picture of a train on a Subway Platform is not doing ground work for a Terrorist Organization. However taking pictures of say Yard Facilities, Tunnels or any other Safety Sensitve Areas would be, and The Cop should have been able to Tell The Difference.
Just wanted to give a different view, Now Back To Taking Pictures.
dmr
Registered Abuser
Oh really! Hopefully you will share more of your knowledge of this particular subject, as it comes up semi-frequently here.
I'm sure that you and MTA must be aware of www.nycsubway.org then?
That site has tens of thousands of photos throughout the system, all on public display, all taken by various contributors. (In fact, they have some that I took when I was in my teens, many years ago.) If the MTA had any compelling reason to keep photos of the system out of the public's eye, they would have already contacted David (operator of the site) and made noise about it. New photos are posted every few days and for all of the photos there are, it's very rare to hear of anybody being hassled.
My guess is that this particular photographer got mouthy with a cop, escalated the situation, and ended up with the snotty end of the stick!
figfoto
figfoto
dmr, i know that site very well, [some really good pics] and I am very sure the MTA knows about it [some of the contributors are probably employees ].
But a lot has changed since the late '80's and especially after 9/11.
Back then when I used to work down there, it took a brave soul to take a camera out, because you where just inviting your self to be robbed [seen this as a conductor too many times].
The crime is way down since then, but after 9/11 it's now the police you have to worry about as far as photography on the property, [according to that article in the Times].
I think you hit the nail on the head, this guy must of mouthed off at the wrong cop at the wrong time to get him self in a jam, but because of his actions we all know for the record there is no law concerning photography on the subway at least.
].But a lot has changed since the late '80's and especially after 9/11.
Back then when I used to work down there, it took a brave soul to take a camera out, because you where just inviting your self to be robbed [seen this as a conductor too many times].
The crime is way down since then, but after 9/11 it's now the police you have to worry about as far as photography on the property, [according to that article in the Times].
I think you hit the nail on the head, this guy must of mouthed off at the wrong cop at the wrong time to get him self in a jam, but because of his actions we all know for the record there is no law concerning photography on the subway at least.
