Old article on Cartier-Bresson

[kbg32]

Whenever I think of people's egos, I think back to the late night I was walking home and saw Robert Frank carrying about 20 rolls of toilet tissue. People make people to be demigods. In the end, we're all human under the skin. We should never forget that.

 

[Topdog1]

Whenever I think of people's egos, I think back to the late night I was walking home and saw Robert Frank carrying about 20 rolls of toilet tissue. People make people to be demigods. In the end, we're all human under the skin. We should never forget that.

As Hegel said, No man is great to his butler. Not because he isn't great, but because his butler is a butler.

/Ira

 

[xayraa33]

I remember seeing the interview of HCB by Charlie Rose, I was astonished at how good Henri's spoken english was.
but if you think about it, it should be no surprise.

 

[OurManInTangier]

Simon,

I hope you know I wasn't taking a poke at you 🙂 Just wanted to add some color to the common perception that HCB was rude. I tend to think of him as someone who did not suffer fools gladly, but exceedingly kind to talented young photographers and those in need

Hi Tom,Not a problem - just wanted to make sure no-one thought I believed he was 'astonishingly rude,' as I never met him and also because you should check me out when things aren't going my way ;-)It was a very interesting read and quite an eye-opener with regard to the sheer amount of in-fighting and fragile ego's ( Gilles especially.) Would love to be at one of their annual meetings just for the bust-ups!!

 

[Ossifan]

Hi everyone - I have found this very interesting and learned the C-B could actually be very generous; however, I still found much of what he has said over the years to be quite disengenous.

For example, he claims that he's a non-violent anarchist but what does that mean, exactly? Mirriam-Webster defines anarchist as: a person who rebels against any authority, established order, or ruling power
2 : a person who believes in, advocates, or promotes anarchism or anarchy; especially : one who uses violent means to overthrow the established order

Furthermore, in the interview he claims his future was read in Tarot cards and that all life is predestined and preditermined - what kind of schlock is that? Finally, let's not forget that he had a very bad opinion of America, Americans and capitalism - whatever the faults of capitlism it certainly served him well as his family were quite wealthy manufacturers of textiles (how else could he afford to wander around taking photos for so long before he bacame famous).

I say admire his photos and be inspired by them (as they are truly great) but certainly not the personal philosophy of C-B, such as it is.

Best,
Alex

 

[payasam]

C-B was born into wealth, and (although Charles de Gaulle was notorious) it is not only in France that wealth brings with it a haughty disdain for ordinary mortals. If arrogance and rudeness come with wealth, so also is the grand magnanimous gesture a part of noblesse oblige. As for being monomaniacal, I know that I blindly go after a picture I see, probably not caring much about the toes on which I might step. I expect all here will have done that. Ego is an unfortunate concomitant of success. It is also a defining characteristic of several of the small worlds which make up the larger one. For example, in the world of north Indian classical music, with which I am familiar, egos are giant hot air balloons made of fragile glass, their owners alternately laughably infantile and downright vicious. Examples abound also in the worlds of literature and of painting.

In the article, I was speaking of C-B not as a person but as a photographer. The chorus of hallelujahs when he died, the mass obeisance, was absurd. Any photographer with a few years' experience can tell how he did his work. Respect for his vision should not obscure the technique that lay behind it. This "decisive moment" thing can be seen also in the work of his Magnum colleagues Bischof, Capa and Roger; although an earlier exponent was the Englishman Bert Hardy. I have spoken already of Erich Salomon.

And surely one must give some weight to how many frames out of a roll are worth enlarging and showing. Years ago someone said, bluntly, that if you gave a chimpanzee a motor driven camera with 250 exposures available, you'd almost certainly end with at least one masterpiece. Photographers can be profligate with film in a way that painters cannot be with oils and canvas, nor cabinet makers with wood. The fleeting nature of visual opportunities should not, I think, be used to justify wastefulness beyond a point. "Film is cheap," they say. Well, I remember a time when film was not cheap and we strove to make every exposure count. Even today, when with a digital camera it doesn't matter whether I fire off one or two frames or a dozen, penny pinching wins out. "Don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes." Concentration, that little bit of "extra" care being a way of life...

 

[Magus]

Post deleted by posters request

 

[Ossifan]

And I would love to come to France - such a beautiful country - it's been a while since I've visited. As for your comments - well, what can I say, a case can be made that he liked what the Tarot reader said and purposely set out to fulfill it, so we end up with an endless spiral of causality.

But I think that on both counts I'll fall back on Ockham's Razor: not to postulate more things than are necessary and that if one claims the existence of something or another, then the burden of proof rests with whomever makes the claim.

I've hardly unlocked any secrets anwhere; however, if one is to believe in predestiny, then imagine all the other things that need to be in existence for that to be the case and ask yourself if the world would look as it does now.

Cheers,
Alex

 

[Flyfisher Tom]

Alex,

Some of your points are well-taken. I get the sense from the interview, as well as his past interviews, that the whole 'anarchist' thing is a response he uses when he feels he is being asked silly, unanswerable questions. Like 'explain your genius', 'how do you take a masterpiece', you get the gist. How does one answer these sorts of interview questions without sounding silly in response? I have a feeling he was having a bit of fun with these sorts of interviews. By contrast, you should watch the interview he gave in Robert Capa PBS' documentary, where his answers are poignant and quite emotional. The difference in subjects (talking about his friend Capa as opposed to talking about himself) seems to have contributed to the level of seriousness with which he treated the questions. In some ways, you might argue, he takes himself far less seriously by the way he answers these questions.

Winogrand once said that there are no photos when he is changing film. Sarcastic, sardonic, arrogant, perhaps ? Yes. But also true in a sense. Imagine the same sort of silly questions Winogrand no doubt answered in every interview. Which 28mm lens did you use, what did you think of the bokeh, how was the the sharpness of your lens at the edges, how did you create that classic shot .... 😉

It should be noted that Magnum photographers to this day are very loyal to HCB as a photographer and mentor. Even those legends with substantial bodies of work themselves, like Erwitt, Koudelka, Depardon etc. And they would be the best judge of what a good photographer and mentor would look like 😉

By contrast, you will not find the same loyalty or regard by Magnum photographers for Abbas, Salgado or Peress. Not because they are lesser photographers, but because they did not have the same ability to mentor that HCB, Capa and Chim did.

Which is to say, you need not like the man. But clearly a lot of his colleagues do. I'm sure he did not earn this loyalty by luck. Nor did he earn his seminal inspirational role for other photographers of acclaim by chance. If that were the case, there would be a lot more HCBs. Clearly there is not.


cheers

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

But I think that on both counts I'll fall back on Ockham's Razor: not to postulate more things than are necessary and that if one claims the existence of something or another, then the burden of proof rests with whomever makes the claim.

I've hardly unlocked any secrets anwhere; however, if one is to believe in predestiny, then imagine all the other things that need to be in existence for that to be the case and ask yourself if the world would look as it does now.

Hmm:

"My pencil is a mind-reader. But you can conclude what you'd like from what you believe about pencils and mind-readers. Anything you have to say about that is your burden to prove. My statement is what it is."

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

Which is to say, you need not like the man. But clearly a lot of his colleagues do. I'm sure he did not earn this loyalty by luck. Nor did he earn his seminal inspirational role for other photographers of acclaim by chance. If that were the case, there would be a lot more HCBs. Clearly there is not.

Well put. I've also noticed that those that "have had it" with "HCB" is a toxic reaction from overexposure. That's what happens when you overplay something that many hold as grand.

Take Pachebel's Canon, or Vivaldi's Four Seasons. I can't stand to listen to them anymore; they are tired, overplayed pieces (certainly for the past 300 years).

etc.

 

[Ossifan]

Hi Tom -

Thanks for you post. It's important to note here (and I haven't said this in my previous posts) that HCB's photos speak to me more than just about any other photographer, but I'm not convinced about the man himself (again, please see Brinnin's chapter in Sextet "Just like Java"). The good news is that what I think of him is totally irrelevant.

Gabriel -

Not sure what your point is other than perhaps a reductio ad absurdum argument??? I mean, if you are claiming that your pencil is a mind-reader then best of luck to you in trying to prove that it can really read minds to the people around you.

Cheers,
Alex

 

[payasam]

Just a note that the razor chap was named Occam.

 

[Ossifan]

Both spellings are acceptable.

 

[telenous]

And I would love to come to France - such a beautiful country - it's been a while since I've visited. As for your comments - well, what can I say, a case can be made that he liked what the Tarot reader said and purposely set out to fulfill it, so we end up with an endless spiral of causality.

But I think that on both counts I'll fall back on Ockham's Razor: not to postulate more things than are necessary and that if one claims the existence of something or another, then the burden of proof rests with whomever makes the claim.

I've hardly unlocked any secrets anwhere; however, if one is to believe in predestiny, then imagine all the other things that need to be in existence for that to be the case and ask yourself if the world would look as it does now.

Cheers,
Alex

Hi Alex,

I enjoyed reading your post, I 'd just like to emphasize a point I 'd differ.

Like you I do not know the man and I wouldn't be surprised if there were aspects of him that were, how should I put it, less pleasant than one hoped. This is the nature of the human beast, kind and times, extremely unpleasant at other times.

If he seriously believed in Tarot cards I would also be skeptical about his judgement. But the reason for that wouldn't be because of his endorsement of predetermination (a perfecly consistent philosophical doctrine and one that cannot be dismissed out of hand, Occam's razor notwhistanding) but because of the Tarot's completely unreliable predictive nature. If hard pressed, some people still defend the indefendsible - that Tarot cards predict the future. But I doubt that HCB was one of them.

If he believed in predetermination then he was no different from a number of scientists and philosophers who adhere to a doctrine that brings together two basic axioms: that the Universe is globally causal and nomic.

There are a few ways to resist the foolhardiest version of the predermination doctrine but none appeals to Occam's razor specifically (as far as I know). The most obvious critique is one which does not dismiss the causal and nomic character of the universe but argues instead for a compatibilitism between free will and causality. Another way to go would be to say that the Universe is perenially indeterministic (not the same thing as saying that it is acausal) - but I don't think HCB had any reason to think about these matters as long or as hard or that he had to.

Best,

 

[Flyfisher Tom]

Take Pachebel's Canon, or Vivaldi's Four Seasons. I can't stand to listen to them anymore; they are tired, overplayed pieces (certainly for the past 300 years).

etc.

Gabriel makes an insightful point. Remember how long it took for you to disassociate the crassness of "Heard it on the Grapevine" by CCR, once it was overplayed and over-commercialized by the California Grape Industry/Association (whatever those folks call themselves). The original version is a wonderful classic.

Or, how other classics by the WHO, now resonate for a generation of our youth as trite title themes to myriad CSI shows, instead of being the classic rock and roll songs they really are.

Overexposure can sour even masterpieces 🙂

 

[swj]

I have enjoyed this discussion.

I think Makul Dube's article was completely valid and I completely understand the argument, but somehow HCB's photographs provide a perfect reposte. I am entranced by them but don't know why. At one point I thought it was almost a nostalgia for a time now gone, I have also wondered if they would tbe as appealing if they were crystal clear and taken with modern lenses. I keep coming back to the that distinct mixture of composition and subject.

I remember seeing his scrapbook recently and was struck by all the versions there were from which the 'decisive' shot was taken; at first I was a little disappointed but fundementally I think the key to understanding HCB's work is what he himself said about it's link to fine art. As he said in the interview the camera was a way to do a quick drawing - I suppose that like any artist he might need to 're-draw' until he got what he wanted. Incidentally this makes me wonder what camera he would use should he be starting today, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a fully automatic one. One that made it easiest to capture that mixture of geometry, moment and something indefinable that made his work, to me at least, that of genius.

Apologies for the long post.

Simon.

 

[Ossifan]

Alkis -

Right you are and I, too, enjoyed reading your post - I was being lazy. But the bigger question I have for anyone who believes that the life (note, not the universe, there is a difference) is predetermined is: so what? or, said differently, how does it change anything?

We still preceive and act as if we have free will (can we do differently?). I would also argue that the universe could be deterministic (i.e. forever expanding, collapsing and expanding, etc., etc.) but that has no bearing on whether or not our small lives on this planet are predetermined.

I do think that Ockham's razor has a place in this analysis as it forces us to consider what things would need to be in place for our lives to be predetirmined (presumably someone/something would need to do the predetirmining???). Anyway, it's been a long time since I worked on philosophy and I am now officially outdated and out of my depth (there weren't any tenure-track jobs to speak of lo those many years ago).

I also think that this thread has gone wildly off track (my fault, probably) and it's probably time to leave it and find something else.

Cheers,
Alex

 

[Ossifan]

Simon -

Don't apologize - your post was perfect.

Best,
Alex

 

[summaron]

2 belated footnotes

The Decisive Moment was never really Cartier Bresson's term. "Images à la Sauvette": "images on the run" or "stolen images," was Terriade's title for the original book. His American publisher chose the Decisive Moment--a crisp and birghtly American way of looking at the world--and perhaps Cartier-Bresson became somewhat enslaved to it.

And what about Andre Kertesz who picked up the Leica in 1928 and took an awful lot of Cartier Bressonish pictures way before C-B did (though C-B did acknowledge his influence)?

http://www.masters-of-photography.com/K/kertesz/kertesz_meudon_paris.html

http://www.sergiosakall.com.br/montagem/foto-andre-kertesz7.jpg