Old M3/M2 versus new R3/R4

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loneranger

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Hello, now that there is a new kid in town (CV ultron 28/2) I am considering jumping back in to the M world. Since I like mechanical shutters only and dont want to spend more than $700 on a body, my options are brand new CV R3/4 or 50 year old leica M3, I wonder which alternative would you guys recommend? which is more likely to last another 10 years with moderate to heavy use? ( I am not really interested in the leica CL)
thanks
 
the 28 mm framelines on the r4 are very nice and stand alone.

i have had an m3 and m4-p along with a bunch of old canon bodies as well and they were all pretty good.
but i prefer the zeiss ikon and now the bessa r4a. i like new and warranteed.

i just got a nice grey r3a also but have yet to use it.

the nice thing is it's hard to go wrong either way.

joe
 
A few months ago, I came to a conclusion that I don't need a Leica M after looking through my old photos. I traveled the world for three years using a Bessa R--through rural countrysides in China to sea caves in Hawaii. I ended up selling it to buy an M6 that needed servicing a couple of times (rangefinder adjustment and shutter adjustment). With the money I spent, I should've kept the Bessa and just bought a new one should it have totaled.

I have the R3A now (1:1 VF for 40/50 was key for me); I'm putting it through a lot of rugged use, and it's holding up as well as my M6 did, not to mention, as well as the Bessa R. I think there's often too much fear regarding the durability of these cameras -
 
I have many cameras (gas always) including a CV Bessa R2s and I have nothing but praise for the rig. When I need to be sure I tend to grab the Bessa.

Good luck.

Ray
 
I've got an M2 and an M3 and an Epson RD-1 (bessa base).

I really love the M2/M3 for how they handle. But I really appreciate an onboard meter, like the Bessas have.

Which one is more important to your shooting?
 
loneranger said:
I just want the shutter to work every time.
Click to expand...

There are reports of people jamming the Bessa shutter, but it's an easy fix. On the other hand, there are reports of people burning pinholes in their M shutters (because it's rubberised cloth), or getting one that 'caps' (because it's old and unused or unserviced, not because of the design).

On the third hand, neither of them is like the shutter on an ebay Zorki, well, on the three ebay Zorkis I had...

I have an M4 and an R4A. I like them both, can't help you there. I think my Hexar RF beats them both as an all-round camera. In fact, it's better than both in most respects except for the Leica's fondlability and the R4A's wideangliness. Its viewfinder coverage (i.e., frameline sets) fall in between the M4 and the R4A, so it's more versatile with the two main lenses I have, 25 and 35.

By the way, some people guess 28mm coverage in an M2 or M4, but the 35mm framelines are really close to the edge of the finder (Leica shrank them to accommodate 28mm framelines in the same basic finder in later models), and aren't readily conceivable through an M3 finder.
 
if the 28ultron is going to be main lense, you should reconsider getting the M3 (0.91x) and R3 (1x), as their widest framelines are 50mm. consider the R4 or the hexar.
 
I agree that the M3 and R3 are far from ideal for use with a 28mm lens (widest frames are 50mm and 40mm respectively). The M2 has 35mm frames, and if you don't wear specs you could use the full frame to approximate 28mm (which I do occasionally with mine). And the CV R2 also has 35mm frames, so I guess you could do the same with that.

The R4, of course, has 28mm frames (its widest being 21mm), but for regular (mainly?) 28mm use, I think its VF is too wide - I have one, but I use it primarily with a 21mm lens. My choice when going out with a 28 (which is one of my favourite FLs) is an M6, which has a 28mm frame, but one of those would break the $700 budget. Some of the M4s have 28mm frames, but I don't know what prices they go for.

If an M4/M6 was above budget and I mainly wanted to use a 28mm lens, I'd probably narrow the choice down to a new R2 or a used M2, and I'd almost certainly go with the latter (but I'm biased as I already have one, and I think the M2 is probably the best camera ever made).
 
I recommend an M4P. If you buy a new R2 or R4* now, in 5 years it will look worse
than an M4p bought used now.

Plus fast 50s are out with the R4* and longer fast lenses are impractical on the R2*.
The 28/2 works beautifully together with 50/1.4 and 90/2.

Cheers,

Roland.
 
I'd get an R4. (In fact....I did get an R4.) If you like using wide lenses, nothing's quite like it. I LOVE shooting the 21mm CV with it...

I think any of these cameras will still be working well in ten years.
 
I was not talking out of Leica enthusiasm. I have owned R, R2, R3 and T. Good cameras for the money. But if you consider that a good user M2, M3, M4[2p] costs between US 500 and 700, cheap they are not.

It takes only a few months for the Bessa winders to loose "smoothness", they are notorious for RF inaccuracy and misalignment, for other failures, just do a search.

There is a reason that the ZI, built by the same factory, is more expensive.

On the other hand, I recognize that the R4 is unique, of course. Enjoy it.

Roland.
 
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loneranger said:
A meter would be nice but not necessary to me. I just want the shutter to work every time.
Click to expand...

You are a good candidate for an M4-P then. Get a used one (one of the best bargains out there for an M-system body), have it CLA'd and you're ready to go.
 
I use 28mm lens on M3 with external viewfinder. Have no problem at all. (In fact I use Cosina 25mm for CV Skopar 25/4, but experience showed that it works just fine - no framing errors)
 
Hi,

As you wish to use the CV 28/2 on the body, the M3 VF is impractical unless you wish to use an external VF. Of the cameras you list, I'd recommend the M2. The M2 will shoot 35-50-90 very well within its brightlines. But also the M2's entire VF is a remarkably accurate representation of the 28mm frame. So out of the cameras you mention the M2 brings together the best in build quality, fit and finish, ease of care and maintaining, as well as usefulness for your needs.

I agree with Roland, though, that if you would like to have the 28mm brightlines in your VF, the M4P makes sense. However, I do not care for the angled rewind levers; they are faster but mechanically more fragile. So I urge you to get a M2 and a small hand held meter. Respectfully, Thomas
 
I've owned three different Bessas (R2, L, R3M) and a couple of M2's and an M6. I didn't own any of the Bessas very long. The two I bought used were fine mechanically for the few months I owned them. The one I purchased new, the R3M, was problem-prone out of the box and eventually the dealer took it back and refunded my money. If I had to choose between my M2 and my M6, I would probably choose the M2. I use the entire finder frame with a 25mm lens, and since photography is a hobby for me, not a profession, it frames close enough for my satisfaction. These older M cameras were designed for heavy use, much more than the average hobby photographer is going to use. I have confidence that the M will last and be dependable so I have chosen that route.
 
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