DanskDynamit
Well-known
I live in Spain and they call the period while he was in power as 'Franquismo' or 'la Dictadura'. So to me Franco was a franquist dictator.
By the way, Benito and Adolf got into power with the vote of the people, Franco did a coup d'ètat and he did not found any new 'movement' or 'party'.
Maybe the 'Falange' was the closest thing to fascism in Spain during Franco's time but not Franco himself, I don't think so.
By the way, Benito and Adolf got into power with the vote of the people, Franco did a coup d'ètat and he did not found any new 'movement' or 'party'.
Maybe the 'Falange' was the closest thing to fascism in Spain during Franco's time but not Franco himself, I don't think so.
Highway 61
Revisited
This is not because a term has become generally used in the common language that it's meaning the right thing. Not so long ago, all cameras were "Kodaks" and all refrigerators were "Frigidaires".
The IIIrd Reich Germany regime keeps the specific "nazi" term mainly because of the Shoah and how Germany dominated Europe between 1939 and 1944. Today most of the masses, including the youngest generations, have heard about Hitler ; I don't think this is the same for Mussolini or Franco.
sanmich
Veteran
Stalin was a fascist.
(just trying to help on the zorky political views
)
(just trying to help on the zorky political views
)
Erik van Straten
Veteran
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Stalin was neither fascist nor the model for Hitler. Both were dictators and ruthless, but that is about as far as similarities go - their political objectives and ideologies were entirely different. Last but not least, Stalin was neither nationalist nor racist...
Erik van Straten
Veteran
I don't speak about similarities and there are of course differences, but Stalin inspired Hitler with his unheard of methods. That is what I want to say.
Erik.
Erik.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Oh well, if you know any Stalin texts on Georgian supremacy, please come up with them...
Stalin was essentially paranoid (or part of a progressively paranoid system - Trotsky's extinction of the non-Bolshevik USSR left preceded Stalin). But the mass murders he commanded follow a paranoid, not a racist logic - entire groups were killed as traitors, but not as members of whatever race.
Stalin was essentially paranoid (or part of a progressively paranoid system - Trotsky's extinction of the non-Bolshevik USSR left preceded Stalin). But the mass murders he commanded follow a paranoid, not a racist logic - entire groups were killed as traitors, but not as members of whatever race.
Highway 61
Revisited
You don't need to publish some dumb texts like "Mein Kampf" to be a racist and for instance truly anti-semitic. During his meeting with Ribbentrop to prepare the "non-agression talk", Stalin promised him to get rid of the "Jewish domination", especially among the Soviet intelligentsia. That was followed with facts. And that idea of creating a Jewish land somewhere in Siberia doesn't play in favor of Stalin not being anti-semitic.
I agree with Erik in that Stalin was fascinating Hitler. On the other hand one of Stalin's paranoid thoughts was that Germany had lost the war because Hitler had been betrayed by everyone surrounding him - hence the endless murders series around Stalin until he died himself.
Stalin was another of the multiple mentally insane war criminals and murderers which came to power at that time in our poor and sick Europe.
rlouzan
Well-known
Lets just say that all the words that end in -ism are bad (ex. communism, socialism, anarchism, capitalism ...) You catch my drift! Before I erase this thread.
Highway 61
Revisited
Erasing that thread ? For what reason ? People have contributed honestly and fairly to it, and it's not less interesting than any other one.
rlouzan
Well-known
I'm just joking !
David Hughes
David Hughes
Hi,
I think the word we are looking for is 'psychopath' although at the mild end of the scale I think they call it something else these days.
Regards, David
I think the word we are looking for is 'psychopath' although at the mild end of the scale I think they call it something else these days.
Regards, David
jarski
Veteran
traveler_101
American abroad
This is simply not true. Franco was put in power thanks to Italian and German military help. They were all part of the same ideological tendency. I grant you that Franco was more cautious in his foreign politics - more inward looking generally - but he was nonetheless a right-wing ideologue who had thousands of people murdered. What you describe in regard to Franco's move toward the Church - the most powerful institution in Spain, mirrors Hitler's move toward the most powerful institution in Germany, the Army; the original brown shirts (the S.A.) wanted a pagan-folk revolution. Hitler had the leadership murdered by the S.S. and won the backing of the German Army.
As far as the meaning of "fascism" the Oxford dictionary has it as follows:
The term Fascism was first used of the totalitarian right-wing nationalist regime of Mussolini in Italy (1922–43); the regimes of the Nazis in Germany and Franco in Spain were also Fascist. Fascism tends to include a belief in the supremacy of one national or ethnic group, a contempt for democracy, an insistence on obedience to a powerful leader, and a strong demagogic approach
Highway 61
Revisited
I perfectly know that Spain between 1936 and 1939 was a training field for both the Italian and German armies (and air forces).
Have I written that Franco wasn't a right-wing dictator with thousands of people murdered ? No. Of course I haven't, and of course he was.
Do I still think that Franco's regime cannot be called "fascist" ? Yes. Definitely.
As for the rest, photomoof has it all.
David Hughes
David Hughes
Photography isn't the only area where words change their meaning over the years. Both 'macro' and 'fascist' are good example of it...
Regards, David
Regards, David
Paul T.
Veteran
Sorry, that's simply wrong. Yes Franco was an opportunist, there were real differences between him, the Falange and Mussolini - who was a confidant, and would see him regularly - but his was an equally sick methodology with death camps and mass extermination, autarky, and all the fascist trademarks; the recent book by Peter Preston uses the term Holocaust and show that Franco killed more Spanish than the Nazis killed Germans.
Highway 61
Revisited
Reading such dumb things should be funny if the Shoah hadn't been the indescriptible horror it has been. Comparing is often (if not always) pointless. And there are some "things" you just cannot compare.
It's probably because "the Holocaust" was at task in the francoist Spain that many European and American businessmen invested in it while tons of westerner tourists were spending their holidays on the Spanish beaches from 1950 onwards...
I didn't know History was now studied through the number of killed people goal-average. If so, Stalin wins head and shoulders with all the flags, bells and whistles. And Pol-Pot is not far. Hurrah.
BTW it's Paul Preston not Peter Preston.
So, once and again : the fascism and the nazism were some true (sick and criminal) ideologies wanting to build a "new world" (which for one of the two should last for one thousand years, remember ?).
The francoism wasn't anything but some negativism and deny about everything considered modern and free (and atheist) and the desperate expression of the will of maintaining Spain where it socially and politically was during, say, the XVIIIth century.
To achieve that, the methods were : first, terrible civil war, with the efficient help of fascist and nazi troops and bombing planes ; hardest repression ; mass murders ; persecutions ; special police ; special prisons ; no freedom ; no democracy ; no free elections ; army at power ; no other political party allowed. All in all what any casual strong dictature is caracterized with. At the very end, the goal was to re-establish the holy-rights monarchy, thanks to a young man whom Franco was considering immature, not very clever, and a simple toy in the hands of the army. We've all seen how it turned out eventually.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Unlikely. Franco was more legitimistic - so the number of civilian executions after death penalty is much higher than the relatively modest 16,500 of the Nazis. But the Nazis killed most of their victims without a legal trial and execution. Mainstream estimates for all victims of Franquism are around 150-200,000. The number of German Jews killed in the Holocaust alone is upward of 195,000 - and other German citizens killed just in the KZ system account for almst the same number (among others, 70,000 handicapped, 24,000 Roma, 17,000 homosexuals, 40,000 members of the left), without even counting people beaten to death in police custody or court-martialed towards the end of the war...
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
a camera does not have political views, therefore, this title is misleading and probably offensive to cameras