Omg!!!

[ampguy]

thanks for the info.

thanks for the info.

You could be right. But there would be a difference in using an M8 in the cold then bringing it in, versus carrying or storing it in the cold, and then opening it. I was speaking to the former.

Interesting about the film question. What are the results to look for of condensation of film pulled out of the refrigerator and used immediately, especially if your refrigerator is at 40 deg F, and 40% RH, and you plan to shoot in 15 deg. F, 60% RH?

I usually do wait an hour before using film, especially in the summer, but sometimes take the film out of the canister right away, but if this isn't a good idea, thanks for the tip.

Sure about that? when I was growing up about a century and 20 camera generations ago, the advice was to put the camera in something when taking it from cold to warm so that the condensation would happen on the container, not the camera. And not bring it out of that container until the camera temp had risen to the ambient temp. It also helped not to capture too much air in the container -- defeated the purpose. Same reason we were told not to take the film out of canisters immediately after removing it from the freezer/refrigerator.

But it sounds like this may be more battery performance related than condensation related.

 

[ampguy]

It can be

It can be

in dry areas, our indoor winter RH would be in the 30s. For keeping skin intact, as well as old wooden guitars, most house have humidifiers. We keep our house at min 50% RH, with a humidifier on the furnace, and room humidifers, but can really feel it if anything causes RH to go below 50, noses get stuffy, skin gets itchy, etc.

Unless you have steam heat... (which I do - but I am not the OP, so it does not matter)

 

[literiter]

Sure about that? when I was growing up about a century and 20 camera generations ago, the advice was to put the camera in something when taking it from cold to warm so that the condensation would happen on the container, not the camera. And not bring it out of that container until the camera temp had risen to the ambient temp. It also helped not to capture too much air in the container -- defeated the purpose. Same reason we were told not to take the film out of canisters immediately after removing it from the freezer/refrigerator.

I firmly believe this as well. I always try to put my camera in a plastic bag when bringing directly into a warm humid area (house or car) from being cold soaked. I figger; if my glasses can fog so will the inside of my camera. I know most of moisture will evaporate but some won't. My Leica M4-P has had to have it's finder cleaned just because of this I'm sure.

I had the pleasure of staying in a back country lodge for some cross country skiing just before Christmas. We had a fairly cold morning outside ( about -31F) but myself and a few others ventured out with our cameras to ski down to a beautiful frozen lake.

I took my Canon G10. Another guy took a very fine Leica M8. Our cameras were on the outside of our coats.
We weren't out for more than two hours, when his Leica stopped working. My $500.00 (CDN) G10 worked just fine.

Later we got back to the lodge, the G10 was still fine and his M8 did some strange things before it warmed up. It began working again that afternoon.

His M8 is for sale I understand.

 

[MartinP]

Just for interest, has anyone tried using a couple of batteries ? Keeping one in the inside pocket of a coat for warmth and then swapping them every ten or fifteen minutes ? Or maybe i should stick to film, and aim off for a slowing shutter.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Cold will deplete a battery of its charge very quickly. Sometimes, it will short them out. Many years ago, I had AA Alkaline batteries short out in extreme cold and get very hot.

Nikon made anti-cold packs for some of its cameras, to keep the required batter on your person to keep it warm while you used the camera.

So: after charging the battery and letting it warm up, did the M8 start working again?

 

[gho]

those batteries don't like the extreme cold.

I agree, the symptoms sound like battery failiure due to extreme coldness. Relax, I hope your camera is ok. Had this with my F100 too, lately. No problems with the m4-p.

And yes, entering a warm room from an extreme cold environment is not a good idea. I heard that putting the camera in an air-tight bag when entering a warm room may prevent condensation.

 

[Harry Lime]

Please send help immediately someone!!! :bang:

Buy an M4?

Ok, that was low.

- You probably already know this, but batteries do not like the cold and will drain at a much faster rate. Get a second or third battery for shooting under such conditions.

Just around xmas we hit -20 CELSIUS over here. The lithium battery for the meter in my M6ttl died, but both the Leica and F2 kept on shooting, regardless of the fact that they were fully exposed to the cold for several hours. That's one advantage of mechanical bodies. I didn't even bother to bring the R8 on that day, since it is totally dependent on batteries.

- If you take a freezing cold camera in to a room, car etc that is significantly warmer, condensation will form inside and outside the body and lens. The M8.2 is full of electronics and I doubt that Leica sealed the circuit boards like Nikon did as far back as the F3. Obviously electronics and water don't get along. Carry along a strong Ziplock bag and BEFORE your enter the warm location place the camera inside it, until your M8.2 has a chance to warm up. Extra points for sucking the extra air out of the bag, when you seal it. I do the same thing with all of my cameras, analog or digital.


PS: Stop shooting from the hip. You can't frame that way.

 

[Carterofmars]

Thanks for the advice and opinions; very appreciated everyone. RFF is an incredible community. I had a crappy experience this morning and within moments of walking in the door, and posting my problem on the forum, I had advice in minutes. Awesome!

I think I'll get a couple of extra batteries (if anyone has to sell?) and defiantly be more conscience of temperature extremes. So the consensus is putting the camera in a plastic bag when entering the house till it warms up.

To be honest, I had a hard time understanding the condensation theory only because I was going from warm to cold this morning. I think the humidity level usually hovers around 20-30% in my home.

I think it had to have been the battery. Just wish I had an extra at the time to swap in... I would have had my answer right then and there.

Hey! How did this one get in here?

 

[MartinP]

It wasn't just nikon with the cold-weather external battery packs. At least Contax made them too, and probably all serious camera ranges. I am wondering if there is a "DC-in" socket on a digital M ? Maybe a self-built pack could be an option, if Leica don't make one already.

 

[jke]

I don't think the plastic bag thing makes any sense actually. If you want to keep your camera warm, wear it under your clothes.

Temperature affects your battery, because batteries contain a chemical reaction. A reduction of temperature retards the reaction and thus limits the ability of the battery to maintain its fully charged capacity. You are also penalized by the use of metal in the body of the camera which hastens the loss of warmth from both your battery and your hands. And I would bet that Leica is using a smaller battery than might be wise for all-weather-use in order to keep the form factor of the camera body reasonably close to its design heritage.

The other day, I shot all morning in freezing weather (NYC sub-freezing actually) with a Canon 5D which has a plastic-rubber coated metal body and had no problems with my battery. And the 5D is also doing AF and a couple other things beyond the shutter and meter, but I would not be surprised if you are just finding the limitations of the Leica battery in cold weather due to the aforementioned factors.

 

[Carterofmars]

PS: Stop shooting from the hip. You can't frame that way.

You know sometimes I find pictures more interesting when I'm not concentrating on composition so much. But I agree, the hip can sometimes ruin a pic sometimes I find I missed the subject altogether.

I was talking to a gallery owner in Mid-town last week. I stopped in to look at his Peter Bialobrzeski images. He was telling me old war stories of his adventures with some very famous street photogs. He went a canoeing trip with Friedlander and his kid two years ago! He told me he once asked Winogrand why he wasn't looking through his viewfinder, and Winogrand would tell him "I always use the finder!", but he says he's seen him shoot without framing many times down on the corner on 57th. and 5th ave.

Very interesting.

 

[Ming Rider]

Have been getting the same thing happening with my M8. Camera stops taking pictures, regardless of temperature. Only thing working is the red light flashing. A recharge and I'm on my way again.

Should be getting between 250-350 shots (realistically) from a charge. Only getting about 150. Think it may be time for a new battery?

Should I stick to genuine Leica or take a punt at one of the 'clones' on ebay?

(Oh no. Just realised this is my first bad word about the M8. Very, very, very sorry ).

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

I was snapping away a lot and was out for about an hour in 28 degrees.



:bang:

Emm...battery + constant use over an hour + below-freezing temperature = drainage.

Other people would be amazed that the battery lasted this long.

But of course, as we're dealing with a Leica, this can only mean a bad thing

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

"My M8 is not working"

Typical M8 conversation...

I wonder if during the Dark Ages, when the movable type press was invented, they got a lot of "Customer Service" calls (ok, relay messages) about how was it that their book burned when they read so close to candle light.

The book burned! But they paid so much for the book! How can the laws of Physics apply in this case?! We're doooooomeed!

 

[Carterofmars]

Emm...battery + constant use over an hour + below-freezing temperature = drainage.

Other people would be amazed that the battery lasted this long.

But of course, as we're dealing with a Leica, this can only mean a bad thing

Before I left the house, the battery had a full charge. I took at most 50-70 shots before she bonked. That camera was ICE COLD to the touch.

 

[Carterofmars]

Another note:

When I put the battery on the charger, the charger's 80% light lit immediately with green blinking. After 30 min or so I had a steady green indicating a completely charged battery. So I don't think the battery was completely dead when the failure occurred. Evidently the cold had an effect on the camera and or battery. Really took me by surprise.

 

[robklurfield]

carterofmars, you got some nice images, dying battery or not. I try to carry a spare in pocket under my coat so that it isn't getting totally discharged from the cold before I need it. of course, my M2 suffers from no such limitations.

 

[Ronald M]

To repeat the best of above.

Spare battery inside coat.

Wrap loosly in a blanket or quilt or I wrap my whole kit bag in my parka for 8 hours when coming in from the cold.

If you were to search the forum you would find a story of an M8 on group tour to Iceland. The M8 froze up and everybody`s Canons and Nikons kept working away. He got condensation inside and the repair bill was more than the the then new M8 was worth.
To make the story short, when there is water damage, condensation, there may be damaged areas not immediately evident and the repair warrantee forces a free repair of components that were ok at the time of original repair. Basically they don`t want to touch water damage.

 

[D&A]

What I find a bit disheartening is that on one hand, the size of the Leica battery is relatively small, compared to other DSLR's that have fairly compact batteries, which aleady puts it at a disadvantage in cold weather. Under temperatures in the 35F degree range and higher, the number of shots on a single charge, relative to how compact the Leica battery is, is remarkably good. Generally over 300+ shots. What is quite different, relative to other DSLR's I've used (since well before 1999), especially ones that use compact sized bateries (and yes I know, the kind of battery is just as important)...is that when the leica M8 or M9 is used in relatively cold temps, but nothing extreme (just 20-30F)...as was pointed out, the camera may cease to function in 1/5 the time. This often is incredably short relative to quite a few others cameras. For a day shootiing in such conditions, one would need a large # of batteries. If the temps dropped even more, I think there could be issues, even as once a warm battery goes into the camera, the camera if used constantly in moderately cold temps, would soon reach ambient temps and # of shots decrease rapidly.

Of course one cannot compare a Nkon D3 battery to a Leica M8/M9...or even to a D300/D700 with its small battery...but often I'll be shooting with either Nikon camera with the wind chill well below freezing..even close to 1-2 degrees F...and the cameras will shoot all day long in those temps, with just a normal battery change after 100's of shots and no precaution to keep things warm.

I do hope technically that in the future, a way is found to provide better battery technology for the M8/M9, as moderate cold weather shooting is the Achilles heel of these cameras. Not always, is it possible on day-long outdoor shoot, can the camera be kept under warps and warm between shots nor enough batteries be available, when camera is getting only 1/5 or less the number of usual shots.

Dave (D&A)

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

I am still in awe that somebody who would by a motorcycle would complain of getting wet when it rained, because whenever he would drive his minivan he'd be kept dry in the same situation.

"But. But! But the motorcycle was more than my minivan! This shouldn't happen!"