sdotkling
Sent through the ether
I'm having a very bad time with my digital camera, and while I enjoy--perhaps too much--complaining about it, I really wish I didn't hate it. The camera I use these days is a middle-level micro 4/3rds (I don't wish to make this a screed against my particular camera, my complaints are more general) that is forever confounding me, even though I believe I'm not an idiot.
An example from this morning: I've got the thing set up to shoot monochrome at a high ISO for street shooting. For some reason I can't understand, what should be a quick shutter speed suddenly drops down to 3 seconds (???!!) I'm on 'program' mode, and I can't figure out what happened. I switch the little wheel to Shutter priority, and I click the thumbwheel looking for a good shutter speed, but now the little wheel is deciding I really want to overexpose by 1-2-3 stops, which I certainly don't. So I'm standing on Sixth Avenue in a sea of commuters trying to figure out what I've just done.
Similar thing happened a couple of days ago, except this time I stumbled into the menu for choosing the size and position of my focus area when I meant to choose a different iSO. That one took 20 minutes with a downloaded pdf of the User Manual to untangle, sitting on a bench on Broadway, where I discovered that some innocuous-sounding menu command was really giving permission to the camera's infernally small brain to shift into a feature I would never use, ever. Why choose a position for the focus window, anyway? Why not just focus, hold the shutter halfway down and re-frame?
All these features are maddening. Will I ever take a photo using "toy mode"? Why do I need 12 "scenic" styles? With all the gazillion useless gizmos, why do they neglect to simply add an "OFF" button so you can banish them forever?
This is why I will buy a Leica Monochrom someday. One button. A $6000 button. Or stick to film. (Helluva lot cheaper.)
I wish it weren't so. Digitial is sooooo convenient. Shooting at 12800 ISO is a dream I had when I was a youngster. Wiggle a few curve lines in Photoshop and you can do everything faster and better than you can do in a darkroom, without smelling hypo. (I actually like the smell of hypo, but still.) Auto focus lenses are so easy, when they work.
Don't get me started on why I have to choose between 4 kinds of autofocus.
End of tirade. Thank you for listening.
An example from this morning: I've got the thing set up to shoot monochrome at a high ISO for street shooting. For some reason I can't understand, what should be a quick shutter speed suddenly drops down to 3 seconds (???!!) I'm on 'program' mode, and I can't figure out what happened. I switch the little wheel to Shutter priority, and I click the thumbwheel looking for a good shutter speed, but now the little wheel is deciding I really want to overexpose by 1-2-3 stops, which I certainly don't. So I'm standing on Sixth Avenue in a sea of commuters trying to figure out what I've just done.
Similar thing happened a couple of days ago, except this time I stumbled into the menu for choosing the size and position of my focus area when I meant to choose a different iSO. That one took 20 minutes with a downloaded pdf of the User Manual to untangle, sitting on a bench on Broadway, where I discovered that some innocuous-sounding menu command was really giving permission to the camera's infernally small brain to shift into a feature I would never use, ever. Why choose a position for the focus window, anyway? Why not just focus, hold the shutter halfway down and re-frame?
All these features are maddening. Will I ever take a photo using "toy mode"? Why do I need 12 "scenic" styles? With all the gazillion useless gizmos, why do they neglect to simply add an "OFF" button so you can banish them forever?
This is why I will buy a Leica Monochrom someday. One button. A $6000 button. Or stick to film. (Helluva lot cheaper.)
I wish it weren't so. Digitial is sooooo convenient. Shooting at 12800 ISO is a dream I had when I was a youngster. Wiggle a few curve lines in Photoshop and you can do everything faster and better than you can do in a darkroom, without smelling hypo. (I actually like the smell of hypo, but still.) Auto focus lenses are so easy, when they work.
Don't get me started on why I have to choose between 4 kinds of autofocus.
End of tirade. Thank you for listening.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
The solution to these sorts of tirades is to learn the camera thoroughly so you don't "stumble into" things that don't work the way you want. Of course, I don't want to discourage you from buying a Leica M Monochrom either. ;-)
My Olympus E-M1 is a magic wurlitzer of features, controls, and customization options. I spent a good six intense weeks studying it to learn all its facets. It does nothing that I don't want it to; it does exactly what I set it up to do.
My Leica M9 and Leica X are models of simplicity, however, and do all I need most of the time.
G
My Olympus E-M1 is a magic wurlitzer of features, controls, and customization options. I spent a good six intense weeks studying it to learn all its facets. It does nothing that I don't want it to; it does exactly what I set it up to do.
My Leica M9 and Leica X are models of simplicity, however, and do all I need most of the time.
G
Spanik
Well-known
One of the reasons I still shoot film: I can mess with speed, aperture, iso and distance. All the rest is my (often not very good) judgement.
rhl-oregon
Cameras Guitars Wonders
Sounds like an Olympus menu ;-p
In m43, Panasonic is not quite so obsessive/compulsive in menus.
Still, what an improvement (for my habits) it has been to work with Fuji X controls and menus for the sort of work you're mentioning. Ditto Ricoh GR/GXR.
In m43, Panasonic is not quite so obsessive/compulsive in menus.
Still, what an improvement (for my habits) it has been to work with Fuji X controls and menus for the sort of work you're mentioning. Ditto Ricoh GR/GXR.
sdotkling
Sent through the ether
Six weeks of study! My point, exactly. I want a camera, not an advanced degree.
You are, of course, right. My problem is that I study for a while, get frustrated, put the thing back on the shelf, and promptly forget anything I learned. Rinse and repeat.
rscheffler
Well-known
IMO, this is the problem with a lot of the 'consumer grade' cameras. The various manufacturers cram so much in to pad the spec sheet and make their's the best to those who buy based on spec sheets... and to appeal to as broad a range of users as possible. And usually the UI is crud. Too many buttons/dials crammed onto a camera that is too small (even for my not so large hands). The rear dial slash 4-way controller on the Sony a7 series is one example. Spin the wheel too enthusiastically and you end up pressing it too hard, suddenly diving into some submenu and setting something you don't want. Possibly even without realizing it.
I think it's time for you to start saving for a digital Leica M of one flavor or the other...
I think it's time for you to start saving for a digital Leica M of one flavor or the other...
Godfrey
somewhat colored
I didn't consider it difficult or "too much." The E-M1 is a terrific camera, and has oodles of useful features. I don't use them all, but over the large audience of users they all find their use. My Leica M9 and X are much more limited cameras, however I find what they do fits the 85-90th percentile of what I need. So I use them when that's all I want and enjoy their simplicity, and I use the E-M1 when I need something more than that.
They're all fine cameras, make no mistake about that. Using a Hasselblad 500CM is quite a bit more complex than using a Leica M4 too, but there are times when the Hasselblad's capabilities are worth the need to deal with the complexity.
G
02Pilot
Malcontent
I've had similar experiences with digital. I'm primarily a film shooter (fully manual cameras) by preference, but recognizing the convenience and unique capabilities of digital, I have made an effort to find digital cameras that I can work with comfortably.
I've tried a few, and I recently picked up a Fuji X-E1 from the classifieds here, specifically to use with legacy lenses. I just took it out for a first test today, and I think it's the answer I've been looking for. Aperture and focus on the lens, shutter speed on a proper, single function dial. Shoot in aperture priority or manual and you don't need to do anything different than with a manual film camera.
That said, I was able to get satisfactory (i.e., not insanely frustrating) performance out of other, albeit after considerable fiddling. But how much time you want to spend working that out instead of taking pictures is up to you. Oh, and (depending on the setup of your camera) one of those little hotshoe thumbrest things works wonders to keep your thumb off the buttons.
I've tried a few, and I recently picked up a Fuji X-E1 from the classifieds here, specifically to use with legacy lenses. I just took it out for a first test today, and I think it's the answer I've been looking for. Aperture and focus on the lens, shutter speed on a proper, single function dial. Shoot in aperture priority or manual and you don't need to do anything different than with a manual film camera.
That said, I was able to get satisfactory (i.e., not insanely frustrating) performance out of other, albeit after considerable fiddling. But how much time you want to spend working that out instead of taking pictures is up to you. Oh, and (depending on the setup of your camera) one of those little hotshoe thumbrest things works wonders to keep your thumb off the buttons.
VertovSvilova
Well-known
Modern digital cameras can be as complex or as easy to use as the user's attitude towards them makes them out to be.....
darya151
Established
I've had a very similar experience as the OP. I feel the same way, too! I don't see why it is necessary to spend so much time undoing a setting that is basic to shooting - aperture, shutter speed, ISO. And attitude matters, but some UI's really ARE overly complex to accomodate all kinds of 'features' to attract more 'consumers.' I am sick of all those gimmicks! Grrr...
Darya
Darya
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
One way to look at it is this:
If you were a camera manufacture, out to make money (priority #1) selling a new digital camera, which one would you target first?
The 90% consumer who don't want to be bothered to think (because photography is not their obsession), and are mostly happy with whatever the camera can do for them (Ultra-super-auto-easy-peasy-let-me-decide-for-ya iMode). This makes room for 10-pages of technical "features" that looks impressive on internet reviews and blogs.
OR
The 10% people like us who wants control over how the light goes into the lens and recorded by the sensor, who now has to learn how to counter the Super-easy mode and get the camera to do precisely what *we* want.
Probably they went for the 90% first. Unless we are talking about Leica, who is in a unique position having the ratio of their market reversed from the above.
jesse1dog
Light Catcher
Not sure we have this programming aspect right at all!
What really happens is that chip manufacturers are making more powerful chips.
The camera guys who program these chips feel they have to use the capabilities of the chips to the full, and so justify their employment. Hence more features get included even if the ultimate camera user wants them or not.
Message to the OP is, stick with your current camera because the next generation will be even more complex.
Does rumour have it that the next Panasonic Lumix camera will be able to set the timer for your coffee maker to correspond to your home coming? LOL
What really happens is that chip manufacturers are making more powerful chips.
The camera guys who program these chips feel they have to use the capabilities of the chips to the full, and so justify their employment. Hence more features get included even if the ultimate camera user wants them or not.
Message to the OP is, stick with your current camera because the next generation will be even more complex.
Does rumour have it that the next Panasonic Lumix camera will be able to set the timer for your coffee maker to correspond to your home coming? LOL
thompsonks
Well-known
Except for Leica, I've been frustrated by too many choices located on too many buttons and buried too deep in poorly-structured menus, with manuals lacking indexes or just not covering the topic.
I 'learned the M8' in an hour or so, and little has changed, functionally, in later Ms. But I've tried X100s and A7 and have needed days - as Godfrey says - to learn how to make either camera work simply enough.
An additional problem, esp. With the Fuji, is easily-bumped buttons - and a lengthy search to re-set.
IMO All digital cameras should have, like Leica, a 'User Profile' button, so you can readily access and shift among a few practical, pre-set personal combinations of settings for street, low light, etc.
I 'learned the M8' in an hour or so, and little has changed, functionally, in later Ms. But I've tried X100s and A7 and have needed days - as Godfrey says - to learn how to make either camera work simply enough.
An additional problem, esp. With the Fuji, is easily-bumped buttons - and a lengthy search to re-set.
IMO All digital cameras should have, like Leica, a 'User Profile' button, so you can readily access and shift among a few practical, pre-set personal combinations of settings for street, low light, etc.
Spanik
Well-known
Now if Leica would make a SLR I'd might find a camera I like... Said it before, give me a digital FF Practika MTL3.
moreorless
Member
IMO, this is the problem with a lot of the 'consumer grade' cameras. The various manufacturers cram so much in to pad the spec sheet and make their's the best to those who buy based on spec sheets... and to appeal to as broad a range of users as possible. And usually the UI is crud. Too many buttons/dials crammed onto a camera that is too small (even for my not so large hands). The rear dial slash 4-way controller on the Sony a7 series is one example. Spin the wheel too enthusiastically and you end up pressing it too hard, suddenly diving into some submenu and setting something you don't want. Possibly even without realizing it.
I think it's time for you to start saving for a digital Leica M of one flavor or the other...
I would tend to agree with this, my first non compact digital camera with a Canon 550D and I never really felt fully "melded" with it. I knew how pretty much everything worked but there was simply too much diving into menu's and buttons with multiple uses for it ever to become THAT intuitive.
In the couple of years since I upgraded to a D800 I'v found it a good deal more intuitive. Its covered in buttons of course but for most standard shooting I'm not having to use menu's and most core functions have there own controls.
One thing that I think should been focused on a lot more with digital is having a decent top plate display of settings, with mirror less especially I think way too many supposedly higher end bodies lack this(Samsung NX1 being the first with a top plate LCD), Fuji is better than most but still doesn't have a meter read out from above. If something like the Nikon F2 could achieve this in 1970 you wonder why having to look into the finder or the back screen is viewed as superior now.
pvdhaar
Peter
The only time I really hate my digital cameras is when I need to blow dust of the sensor and it sticks..
AlexBG
Well-known
The exposure line moving when you are in P or M mode is the camera telling you how much you are over/under exposing the shot. It doesn't actually change anything on the settings. Took me a while to work that out!
Godfrey
somewhat colored
Hmm. I have the Olympus E-1 (and in the past had the Panasonic L1) as well as the E-M1 and several other digital cameras. The E-1 has a top mounted LCD display (as did the E-5), the others have had only the LCD display readout.
The L1, like the Leica X2 and X, has discrete controls for aperture and exposure time visible from the top. They're the most like using a film camera from the past.
The E-1's top panel display is excellent when working hand-held, but the E-M1 and other cameras' LCD display is only slightly less convenient to see at a glance. The LCD display is far MORE convenient when working on a tripod, and is especially convenient when the LCD is articulated to allow waist-level shooting.
The Sony A7's LCD display has the best implementation of an externally visible meter readout I've seen. Tip the LCD so that it is visible waist level style and the readout shows current settings, meter reading, as well as scene histogram and level readout. I use it all the time, usually before bringing the camera to my eye to frame and focus.
G
Pioneer
Veteran
I spent quite a bit of time (+/- 6 weeks) learning the ins and outs of my Pentax K10D and I know how to use it quite well. It is now several generations old. I refuse to sell it because it still does what I want quite well.
In comparison, learning how to use my M9 was truly a breath of fresh air. Leica may be a newbie in the digital business but at least they still seem to understand the concept of simple.
I hope the M has continued the tradition but I hear things about live view and video and I fear they are being caught up in the tradition of digital complexity.
In comparison, learning how to use my M9 was truly a breath of fresh air. Leica may be a newbie in the digital business but at least they still seem to understand the concept of simple.
I hope the M has continued the tradition but I hear things about live view and video and I fear they are being caught up in the tradition of digital complexity.
moreorless
Member
The E-1 of course was is a DSLR, you can of look at the rear screen but tipping the camera over or flipping the screen up becomes rather annoying when it needs to be done literally thousands of times over the years.
For street shooting especially I think the ability to glance down and see your settings is very useful, even moreso if you can also see a meter reading(even if it isn't obviously 100% accurate).