ON THE M8: SHOCK OF THE NEW & DEJA VU

[humanized_form]

I didn't mean the digital rangefinder concept itself per se, i meant the history of not changing (or the glacial pace of change) that Leica has shown. That sort of consistency is rare, and i think overall it's served them well. That will be a new thing for digital photography, which is all about change.

digital camera design is funny, i mean simply having an aperture ring and a shutter dial seems to hailed as revoutionary! hah. so to me Leica simply being Leica is a big deal and hopefully means i will finally have a digital camera that i want to use.

i'm really curious to see how much of the analog M they can bring to the digital M. basically i want a digital version of my M7. though i am looking forward to the better flash sync and shutter speeds of the M8.

 

[Ben Z]

Despite the ubiquitousness and economy and convenience and performance of ballpoint pens for the last 50 years, today in 2006 there is still an assortment of new high-end fountain pens to be purchased, there are people who service and restore the classics, and ink is still readily available and affordable.

 

[rolly]

Despite the ubiquitousness and economy and convenience and performance of ballpoint pens for the last 50 years, today in 2006 there is still an assortment of new high-end fountain pens to be purchased, there are people who service and restore the classics, and ink is still readily available and affordable.

That's right, Ben. And as you probably know many of those pens that carry on a classic fountain pen tradition are improvements over older designs--and that as long as there is a market, there will be fountain pens and fpountain pen ink. But almost all of the current renditions of fountain pens -- many of them marketed as luxury pens-- come at a premium cost. Again, and not to make the point of what I wrote have too have much of a "moral" or even much of a point, there is that ghost of a parallel with Leica. Even those who aren't buying the digital M still root for Leica to pull off their version. They are one of the few classic camera companies; hopefully they can be more like Parker pen than like Wahl Eversharp and they will have many years of successes in digital camera making.

For myself, I recently decided against jumping into high end digital in favor of replacing my Contax G system with a retrograde move to a Leica M6, and shifting away from color film to black and white. As with using a fountain pen, this move has forced me to slow down and approach the act of photographing in a familiar yet different way, and while I don't gain the immediacy of digital, there's an excitement that comes from using the Leica and letting it lead me to see in a way I did not see when using the G. The equipment can have a subtle effect on how the world looks in a photograph--and black and white is almost like a separate speciies of creature, to me. So again this is like choosing one's equipment from vintage and new pens, papers, inks. Another topic would be why we are so smitten by these pens, and these cameras. Aren't they ultimately just things? rolly

 

[Ben Z]

Well, I don't know what I can say about all that but I can say I've never had a Leica leak in my pocket. 😛

 

[matt fury]

If you want to continue with the somewhat-flawed fountain pen analogy, here's a little more... right now, the modern fountain pen market is made up off all sorts of players from all over the world. You have legacy brands like Parker, and Waterman continuing to make pens and even being sold in places like Office Depot. Then you have old names ressurected from the past, such as Conklin (CV, anyone?) making a few pens here and there. Mont Blanc has stayed in business by turning itself into a luxury brand, ala Rolex (and Leica!). There are also lots of modern companies make very nice pens in many countries, USA, Italy, Japan, etc. And there's also the cheap, but fairly good quality chinese pens being sold for $20 or less, which is very low price compared to the rest of the market! All this happens while the vintage market continues to thrive. I think in this sense, moreso than the fp vs bp thing, the analogy is pretty strong. Even if digital becomes the 95% choice in the near future, I'm sure we'll continue to have plenty of choices in camera and film products.

 

[ampguy]

a guess

a guess

It may be possible the 10d is good for 50,000 more clicks than later models. The later models were likely designed to be smaller and cheaper. Also, the lens in these kits aren't great. You'd be much better getting an adapter and using old m42 lens.

A Rebel XT has most of the features of a 10d and then some for less than 800 Euro including a kit lens.
A 30d which is a real improvement over the 10d in every aspect can be had for 1150 Euro.

Why should one buy a 10d which may or may not have some 50,000 clicks on the shutter for more than 500?

 

[Socke]

It may be possible the 10d is good for 50,000 more clicks than later models. The later models were likely designed to be smaller and cheaper. Also, the lens in these kits aren't great. You'd be much better getting an adapter and using old m42 lens.

No, it's the other way around. The first two D30s I had access to failed after some 30,000 clicks and had to be serviced. One D60 had shutter failure after not more than 30,000 but mine is fine and must be closer 50,000 now.
The shutter in the D30 and D60 is more or less from the film EOS 30, I think it's Elan 7 in the US, the 10d got a smaller mirror and an improved shutter.

Hm, since 2000 we had:

2000: 1 D30 which had two shutter/mirror repairs, Error 99 in 2001 and Error 81 in 2004 (still in service today).

2000: 1 D30 with a stuck mirror in 2001 and a broken mount after it fell from a table with a 35-350L attached in 2002.

2002: 1 D60 (replacing the broken D30) with no X-Sync in 2003 and Error 99 in 2004, it was stolen shortly after the second repair.

2003: 1 D60 still in use today without any problems

2004: 1 D60 (bought used) with no X-Sync due to a loose hotshoe, easyly cured with a jewelers screwdriver and some nail polish, still in use today.

Since 2004 a 10d which died in battle after some shots at the local Angels Place 🙂, another 10d stolen, a 1D MkII with a slightly bent hotshoe and a 550Ex flash with a broken foot after beeing too close to some demonstrators.
Two or three 16-35Ls and one 24-70L with damaged frontelements, one 24-70L stolen with the 10d ....

Compared to the four PJs I know, I baby my D60 🙂 but I do see more reliability in the 10d and above, besides the known problems with the battery grip none of the 20ds ever failed, neither the 10d nor one of the 1d or 1d MKII bodies.

And think about it, would anybody of us take some 30,000 pictures in two years with film?

 

[Ben Z]

You'd be much better getting an adapter and using old m42 lens.

It's interesting you mention that. I got a used 20D not long ago, just the body. We have a couple of lenses from my wife's Rebel Ti but mostly I use my trusty Pentax SMC screwmount lenses with the adaptors. Those lenses have a stopdown tab on them that makes it much nicer flipping between wide open for focusing and stopping down for shooting, than Leica R or Nikon lenses with the adaptors.

 

[John Camp]

Given the development of the digital SLRs, and the interesting variations done with the R-D1, the Leica people had a lot of ideas to work with. I imagine that most of the settings you (Mark Norton) just mentioned will be visible from the top, like the R-D1, but I would expect that you could also see them on the LCD. I would like a twistable LCD, and a fairly large one. I do chimp, and the older dimmer LCDs can be almost useless in bright daylight. The nice thing about the R-D1 is the analog quality of the controls: you can tell at a glance if you're okay to shoot (got enough power, got enough memory, etc.) and you can also get a feel for how long you can continue, instead of just getting a number. We might not get analog readings on the M8, but it would be cool if we did.

JC

 

[ampguy]

hi

hi

I am not familiar with those models (I'm in the US), but have heard the 10d is more reliable than the 20d, though heftier, slower, less features electronics.

No, it's the other way around. The first two D30s I had access to failed after some 30,000 clicks and had to be serviced. One D60 had shutter failure after not more than 30,000 but mine is fine and must be closer 50,000 now.
The shutter in the D30 and D60 is more or less from the film EOS 30, I think it's Elan 7 in the US, the 10d got a smaller mirror and an improved shutter.

Hm, since 2000 we had:

2000: 1 D30 which had two shutter/mirror repairs, Error 99 in 2001 and Error 81 in 2004 (still in service today).

2000: 1 D30 with a stuck mirror in 2001 and a broken mount after it fell from a table with a 35-350L attached in 2002.

2002: 1 D60 (replacing the broken D30) with no X-Sync in 2003 and Error 99 in 2004, it was stolen shortly after the second repair.

2003: 1 D60 still in use today without any problems

2004: 1 D60 (bought used) with no X-Sync due to a loose hotshoe, easyly cured with a jewelers screwdriver and some nail polish, still in use today.

Since 2004 a 10d which died in battle after some shots at the local Angels Place 🙂, another 10d stolen, a 1D MkII with a slightly bent hotshoe and a 550Ex flash with a broken foot after beeing too close to some demonstrators.
Two or three 16-35Ls and one 24-70L with damaged frontelements, one 24-70L stolen with the 10d ....

Compared to the four PJs I know, I baby my D60 🙂 but I do see more reliability in the 10d and above, besides the known problems with the battery grip none of the 20ds ever failed, neither the 10d nor one of the 1d or 1d MKII bodies.

And think about it, would anybody of us take some 30,000 pictures in two years with film?

 

[Bob Ross]

I would like a twistable LCD, and a fairly large one. I do chimp, and the older dimmer LCDs can be almost useless in bright daylight.
JC

So far the information out says a 2.5" LCD, no twist and turn. It is suppose to add 3mm to the body thichness.
What I would like to see is an OLED display, but we are about one digital season too early for that... 🙁 They are supposed to start showing up at the end of the year and on Canon's next generation. Image quality and refresh rate is a big jump better and they use less power and can be seen in bright daylight. Sanyo has one out on a vid/still hybrid cam.