One by one, they're moving over

[jaapv]

I find it pathetic that a few people can find so much time to debase a camera they do not own to the point that the majority of people who do own the camera want to stay away or cannot post their feelings or look for advise without some *** **** chiming in and pissing on the parade.

It saddens me to admit you are right. It causes me to move over to LUF more and more...

 

[Richard Marks]

I really feel the M8 has potential if and when Leica gets it right. I certainly can and has produced great images and I wouldlove to try one for a week. But, it's just not right for what I'm doing and falls short of what I feel would make it a workable camera for me. There's no doubt that I could produce fine images with it, I did even with the D1 Nikon at 2.75 MP. I really think the camera will suit many peoples needs if they get things straight. I just hope they do and don't dump their customers like they have on the DMR.

hi X-ray

This is actually the rangefinder forum. The clue is in the name. The real debate is how this compares to other rangefinders. Sure if you want to make huge prints then medium / large format is the option. What I am trying to say is that for its intended purpose it works extremely well. You say that leica have not quite got it right. I am simply saying that if you actually do an objective evaluation, you might be very suprised indeed. The comparison is actually against a film M camera. I have made this comparison objectively having used both. You are clearly a very respected member of this forum. Your opinion would be respected even more if you had actually taken some pictures yourself with an M8. Only then can you decide if leica have "got it right" or not as the case may be.

 

[HAnkg]

If the new Canon 1Ds is 22MP with better high ISO then the 5D and wider dynamic range then a medium format back (as is rumored) it will probably grab most of the pro market it doesn't already have. Say bye, bye to Phase One and Hasselblad. Canon might wind up with 98% pro market share - but pros will continue to use a range of tools for certain work, including everything from Holgas to 8x10 film. The M rangefinder was never used by fashion and product photographers even when it dominated the 35mm market. Today it fills a small but potentially still viable/profitable niche with its small footprint and unique viewing/focusing system. I'd say the greatest threat to Leica are smaller DSLR's with image stabilization built in to the camera.

Canon like every other large camera manufacturer makes the vast majority of it's profit from consumer cameras not from the 1 series. Even with the full frame line the majority of buyers are well heeled amatuers who line up for every new version before it's released (and howl with indignation in online forums that the new release hasn't lived up to thier expectations) . Without amatuer $$$ it's unlikely Canon would be funding it's pro line to the degree that it does. In this respect they are not so different from Leica. The medium format back makers are the only photo businesses 99% dependent on the pro market and I doubt they will survive Canon's next wave.

Walking around and working with an M remains a fundamentally different experience then shooting with a 5D with an SLR sized zoom or prime or a behemoth sized 1 series camera. 10MP does not beat 16 or 22 but 35mm was never the ultimate in quality, it's reason for being lied in its small discreet footprint and a different way of working. Images where captured in 35 that just where not possible with larger formats. With the M8 that esthetic is alive, if not totally well in the digital world.

I often moved to cameras that could deliver better image quality but it didn't always result in better images. About 5 years ago I was doing a series of Macro images in an estate garden using a Leica R6 and the 60 MACRO lens. I moved "up" to a Hassy with the 120 MAKRO and an Arca Swiss with a beautiful Rodenstock lens. 90% of the images I kept where from the 'inferior' system. There was something about the way I was able to work with the 35mm combination that I just couldn't transfer to the higher IQ systems.

I moved to digital when the 1Ds came out because the 1Ds was "good enough". It was the first digital camera that met my minimum requirements. I am now moving to the M8 because it is "good enough", It's meets the minumum requirements to enable me to go back to using M Leica's and that is something I have been waiting a long time for.

 

[Ben Z]

I find it pathetic that a few people can find so much time to debase a camera they do not own to the point that the majority of people who do own the camera want to stay away or cannot post their feelings or look for advise without some *** **** chiming in and pissing on the parade.

It saddens me to admit you are right. It causes me to move over to LUF more and more...

Actually, though I am not registered or post there, it is the LUF where I have read of the numerous lockups, hiccups and new types of banding (not adressed by the recall) being reported by owners of the M8. So if reading about the real problems owners are experiencing offends you, the LUF is definitely not the forum you want to visit.

 

[x-ray]

hi X-ray

This is actually the rangefinder forum. The clue is in the name. The real debate is how this compares to other rangefinders. Sure if you want to make huge prints then medium / large format is the option. What I am trying to say is that for its intended purpose it works extremely well. You say that leica have not quite got it right. I am simply saying that if you actually do an objective evaluation, you might be very suprised indeed. The comparison is actually against a film M camera. I have made this comparison objectively having used both. You are clearly a very respected member of this forum. Your opinion would be respected even more if you had actually taken some pictures yourself with an M8. Only then can you decide if leica have "got it right" or not as the case may be.

Richard:

I'm quite aware this is the RF Forum. I see the discussion relating to how the M8 compares in the market with other digital cameras of similar cost and resolution, 5D, D2x and 1DsII on the top end. They're all competing for the same dollars and both RF and slr make images. If you want to compare only to RF cameras then compare it to the Epson, it's about the only choice. The M8 is billed as a pro camera and therefore it has to perform up to pro standards. As a professional of 42 years and a master photographer I have some darn high standards. If I didn't have extremely high standards i would never have the clients I have and have shot for over the years. The people I work for can choose any photographer anywhere. I didn't get and keep these companies by shooting second class work. I think the problem is you and I have different standards.

I have eyes and extensive experience with digital and film based photography. In total about 9 years with a variety of digital equipment from scanning backs to DSLR's. I work for clients like Union Carbide, Exxon, Phillips Electronics, W.R.Case, Mahle Inc. and many more. From the samples I've seen my eyes and experience tell me it won't meet the standards set by my clients. I don't think the images I've seen have been faked. Nikon didn't hit it on the first try and canon has had it's issues in the beginning. Kodak never hit the mark and leica, well who knows.

The M8 isn't a total disaster but needs some serious refinement. If and when Leica does that it will be a fine camera within it's limitations.

 

[jaapv]

Actually, though I am not registered or post there, it is the LUF where I have read of the numerous lockups, hiccups and new types of banding (not adressed by the recall) being reported by owners of the M8. So if reading about the real problems owners are experiencing offends you, the LUF is definitely not the forum you want to visit.

You know I am not offended by serious problems or arguments, Ben. It is trollish bashing and personal attacks I object to. I think that is one thing you and I agree on. And it is on the rise here... Did you see the feel-good thread over there btw ?

 

[Richard Marks]

"The problemn is that you and i have different standards"

Dear X ray
Please do not make any assumptions about my standards.
All Im saying is that this camera deserves a proper evaluation. It does not matter how renowned you are as a photographer. (Thank you for a resume of your CV. It is actually unnecessary, pictures are enough. I will not bore you with a resume of my lowly existence. ) You are saying that this camera needs some "refinement". I say use an M8 for a test and tell us what you then think needs refining. A lot of people are influenced by threads such as this, and it is important that you qualify your opinion of the M8 alongside your experience of the same.
Best wishes
Richard Marks

 

[Sailor Ted]

[So if reading about the real problems owners are experiencing offends you, the LUF is definitely not the forum you want to visit.

I do not mind reading about "real" issues with the M8- it's the "spin" and "hyperbole" I detest. Truth is that without this spin, any real issues with the M8 would not seem so bad because in reality they are not so bad. When every sneeze gets echoed a thousand fold it seems the world is on the verge of a great plague.

This is not a forum for Leica M8 lovers and users to share experience and knowledge. This is a place where M8 haters, people with a strange and pathetic fascination with this camera and its users come to make much to do about nothing. That this attitude should primarily come from those with very little evident skills as photographers and or little or no M8 experience should be looked at more often by the M8 user community. Perhaps this is nothing more then a mind set of a non photog or wanna be photog looking for a camera to transform them into a real photographer. To this I say, hold out for an iEye Pinocchio.

When if I get the inclination I will write about what I see as the real psychological reasons behind this absurd phenomenon but for now I'm back to creating images.

 

[Sailor Ted]

The M8 isn't a total disaster but needs some serious refinement. If and when Leica does that it will be a fine camera within it's limitations.

The M8 is a fine camera right now within it's limitations. If you were to use one "within its limitations" that is to say for street photography, travel photography, photography where huge and heavy field artillery cannons are inappropriate you would no doubt create exceptional images. And if you were shooting in light that allowed you to take full advantage of the M8's amazing sharpness then these images would be exceptional indeed. Really I do not understand your issue with this camera and in fact until you use one yourself under a variety of circumstances and light you’re only speculating but to what end game I cannot fathom.

 

[ywenz]

The M8 is a fine camera right now within it's limitations. If you were to use one "within its limitations" that is to say for street photography, travel photography, photography where huge and heavy field artillery cannons are inappropriate you would no doubt create exceptional images. And if you were shooting in light that allowed you to take full advantage of the M8's amazing sharpness then these images would be exceptional indeed. Really I do not understand your issue with this camera and in fact until you use one yourself under a variety of circumstances and light you’re only speculating but to what end game I cannot fathom.

I believe x-ray is speakig in relative terms - when other pro cameras do no suffer the same kind of design deficiency in its image quality, the unreliable usability when field tested - given just those two issues, how can you even compare the M8 to a pro camera? Maybe our impression on the size of the issues are skewed because of internet forums, but I certainly don't see the type of "Dead M8" or "M8 shut off and won't turn on anymore, but now it randomly started up again, however the battery won't show full anymore, and now there's a strange waterfall streak across the center of my image, OH I see, I need to wait a split second after turning on the camera before I can take an image." type threads on the pro canon or nikon forums, especially given the much larger pool of owners on those forums.

 

[sirvine]

I can understand the frustration of owners, having following this discussion umpteen times from the outside looking in. It must be irritating when you actually like the camera, to say the least. On the other hand, there are those who see Leica as strong in two areas: (a) reliability, and (b) image quality. Since many of the reported issues affect reliability and IQ, I can understand why the nay-sayers are saying the sky is falling. If the issues were things like user interface complexity or LCD size/resolution or battery life, I think people would be a lot less disappointed and freaked out. As a matter of fact, it seems like Leica got most of the incidentals right (e.g., form factor, menu structure, veiwfinder, etc.) and most of the reliability/IQ right, but with significant enough exceptions to make some rational people return the body for a refund.

 

[Sailor Ted]

I believe x-ray is speakig in relative terms - when other pro cameras do no suffer the same kind of design deficiency in its image quality, the unreliable usability when field tested - given just those two issues, how can you even compare the M8 to a pro camera? Maybe our impression on the size of the issues are skewed because of internet forums, but I certainly don't see the type of "Dead M8" or "M8 shuts off and won't turn on, but now it randomly started again" threads on the pro canon or nikon forums, especially given the much larger pool of owners on those forums.

Ben,
This camera is not unreliable- repeat your mantra a thousand times and the simple minded will follow you down that path however it's not the case- the R-D1 is unreliable but not the M8. As to IQ issues- what IQ issues? Use IR cut filters if you wish or use the cameras native capture to creative effect. This is a tool that pros can and do use. Not everyone wants to haul a howitzer into the field. Hell my M8 is too large for many applications I like to use a camera and so I use my GRD to creative effect (as you know). The point is if I cannot be bothered to use my M8 in every application because of it's size then what do I care about a Canon? Obviously there is a market for a DRF and this camera fits the bill.

What in the wide world of sports is going on around here? I cannot image spending day after day in a forum ridiculing users of a product that they love and I hate.

 

[x-ray]

I believe x-ray is speakig in relative terms - when other pro cameras do no suffer the same kind of design deficiency in its image quality, the unreliable usability when field tested - given just those two issues, how can you even compare the M8 to a pro camera? Maybe our impression on the size of the issues are skewed because of internet forums, but I certainly don't see the type of "Dead M8" or "M8 shuts off and won't turn on, but now it randomly started again" threads on the pro canon or nikon forums, especially given the much larger pool of owners on those forums.

Exactly!

I have absolutely nothing agains leica and want to see them stay in business but I feel for those investing big bucks for a camera that has so many issues. Hold leica to the fire untill they get it right and don't just accept anything they ship and tell yourslef everything is fine because it's a Leica. Let's be honest here, how would you feel if it was canon or nikon that you bought and the same issues were happening? I hold leica to the same high standard every other pro manufacturer should be held to.

I would love to do an honest evaluation of the M8. Who wants to send me one for a week?

 

[Nikon Bob]

sirvine

I think you hit the nail on the head. I bought a Panasonic FZ50 even after reading about it's deficiencies. The way that I use this camera the deficiencies do not affect it's usefulness. I just used it in a month long overseas trip and it just plain worked right out of the box. I did not have to go through numerous cameras to get on that worked satisfactorily or send it back for a variety of reasons that some have had to do with the M8. This from a camera that is considerably less costly than an M8 and I would expect at least the same results results had I purchased an M8. OTH the M8 may produce a better file. Anyway that is the rub for most people as I see it and the reason most are being critical. If I were in the market for an M8 all that has gone on would make me hesitate also. It is not a disposable camera like my FZ50.

Bob

 

[Richard Marks]

Dear X ray

How do you know there are so many issues?
Do not rely on the internet. You have made it very clear that you believe we have different standards. My standard is scientific evaluation in an objective way based on facts that can be verified. I certainly would not base my opinions on the hearsay of the internet. It would gladly let you trial my M8 if you were local. Infact i have offered the same to a pro in the UK and I beleive I have been very helpful in convincing him that much of the negatives appearing on the internet are actually bunk! Interestingly I have sent him some of my images which he has used to base his opinions on. This is an objective process. But then he is a lecturer in Photography and clearly takes a scientific unbiased viewpoint. Would somebody local please give x-ray a go with an M8?
best wishes
Richard Marks

 

[Ben Z]

I've seen for several years on the internet that Leica is "the camera people love to hate", and the taunting, mocking and ridiculing of Leica fans by outsiders is as dumb to me as the way it's often countered with over-zealous, condescending in-denial defensiveness. No one is allowed a measured, rational opinion, we're all shoved into one camp or the other.

The M8 clearly is capable of producing image files on an extremely high order. Some of that is probably attributable to the fact it takes some of the finest lenses in the world, Leica M glass, which it is one of only 2 cameras than can do so and the M8 is clearly the one with higher imaging specification. The M8 also has all the advantages (low-light viewing, compact size, uncomplicated user interface) of its film-eating predecessors. Leica as a company has an amazing tenacity toward staying in the fight unlike others like Konica, Minolta, Bronica, Mamiya, Pentax and others who have basically thrown in the towel as a result of digital. They are a tiny entity, and the M8 just as it is, is an astounding accomplishment not to be disparaged.

OTOH, the IR-filter issue (speaking of both the technicalities as well as the marketing/PR since they seem to be hopelessly intertwined) is a deterrent to many. So is what is being perceived as an unusually high proportion of bugs and crashes. So is the missing 1.10 firmware update, taken in light of the DMR where a promised firmware update was aborted because Leica lost cooperation from Imacon, as they have from Jenoptik, and then the DMR was discontinued. In these instances Leica's silence is anything but golden.

I had the money in my fist ready to buy an M8. I'm a current Leica owner and user, not some guy with a bag full of Canon trolling the Leica forums. I still feel the need for the IR filters is embarrassingly stupid, whether or not it was intentional. But I am over it, and ready once again with the money in my fist ready to buy. All I am waiting for now is for most of the teething troubles to be fixed. Not downplayed or censored off the forums. Fixed.

 

[Gid]

Ben,
This camera is not unreliable- repeat your mantra a thousand times and the simple minded will follow you down that path however it's not the case- the R-D1 is unreliable but not the M8. As to IQ issues- what IQ issues? Use IR cut filters if you wish or use the cameras native capture to creative effect. This is a tool that pros can and do use. Not everyone wants to haul a howitzer into the field. Hell my M8 is too large for many applications I like to use a camera and so I use my GRD to creative effect (as you know). The point is if I cannot be bothered to use my M8 in every application because of it's size then what do I care about a Canon? Obviously there is a market for a DRF and this camera fits the bill.

What in the wide world of sports is going on around here? I cannot image spending day after day in a forum ridiculing users of a product that they love and I hate.

Ted,

My experience is that the M8 is less reliable than the R-D1

When the R-D1 came out it had its fair share of problems most of which were related to the QC around the VF. It also had many detractors a lot of whom hadn't even see the camera. The difference with the M8 is that Leica IS a well known camera company with a history of high quality output, Epson make printers (bad generalisation I know). If you're put on a pedestal, you have a long way to fall. The M8 does not, in my opinion, come close to the standards expected from Leica except with regard to image quality (magenta notwithstanding). I have no desire to bash Leica or any other manufacturer, but if there are problems, then, its is only fair and reasonable that these should be made public so that potential buyers can at least be aware of the risks they are taking. I think it is also reasonable that those who would otherwise have bought the M8 should be able to express their disappointment without being called naysayers etc. I have no support for trolling of any kind though. This includes those who would have us believe that the M8's problems are just myths. They are not myths. Some people are just luckier than others.

If you are lucky enough to have a no faults M8, then, I am sure that you will have the potential to produce exceptional images and I wish you all the very best. If Leica to solve the QC issues I will most likely get back into the M8.

Good light to all, regardless of brand or medium.

 

[jaapv]

I can understand the frustration of owners, having following this discussion umpteen times from the outside looking in. It must be irritating when you actually like the camera, to say the least. On the other hand, there are those who see Leica as strong in two areas: (a) reliability, and (b) image quality. Since many of the reported issues affect reliability and IQ, I can understand why the nay-sayers are saying the sky is falling. If the issues were things like user interface complexity or LCD size/resolution or battery life, I think people would be a lot less disappointed and freaked out. As a matter of fact, it seems like Leica got most of the incidentals right (e.g., form factor, menu structure, veiwfinder, etc.) and most of the reliability/IQ right, but with significant enough exceptions to make some rational people return the body for a refund.

Yes- but it also makes some vilify the camera and company irrationally.
And - IQ (yuk!) is the best in its class and reliability as it is now about on par with other electronic offerings - and rapidly increasing.

 

[photogdave]

Leica as a company has an amazing tenacity toward staying in the fight unlike others like Konica, Minolta, Bronica, Mamiya, Pentax and others who have basically thrown in the towel as a result of digital.

Pentax is doing very well with digital. The K10D is an amazing camera for the money (So is the K100D for that matter), and flying off the shelves here in Canada. The Limited prime lenses are in high demand, the new * series fast zooms look promising, and Pentax is on the verge of releasing a 30MP 6x4.5 DSLR.

 

[HAnkg]

Pentax is no longer an independent company.

But they are headed in an interesting direction in keeping with there illustrious past -better then the industry norm viewfinders, compact size, fast and tiny LTD primes, anti-shake in the body - all at a very attractive price points. You could see this line attracting some low light RF shooters. They are carving out there own DSLR niche.