Mistral
Member
For those shots requiring a minimum of noise, I find the ability to fire off the shutter of the M6 or M7 without recocking it, has offered a number of unique picture taking opportunities.
We know Leica exhalts this feature.
I appreciate that the shutter is either the exact same or derived from that of the R9 and not purely mechanical, but why oh why did they eliminate the advance lever?
Does anyone else miss the snick (being the only noise) ?
Is there a setting (don't think so) that permits the photo to be taken, but the shutter recock delayed?
All other things being equal, I reckon it'd outsell M8 -alpha.
Broader appeal.
Luddite or fair comment? M8 MP.
We know Leica exhalts this feature.
I appreciate that the shutter is either the exact same or derived from that of the R9 and not purely mechanical, but why oh why did they eliminate the advance lever?
Does anyone else miss the snick (being the only noise) ?
Is there a setting (don't think so) that permits the photo to be taken, but the shutter recock delayed?
All other things being equal, I reckon it'd outsell M8 -alpha.
Broader appeal.
Luddite or fair comment? M8 MP.
Topdog1
Well-known
Sounds to me like you want an R-D1!
/Ira
/Ira
AusDLK
Famous Photographer
Oh, man, don't get me started on the M8 shutter.
Gain some higher speeds but completely destroy the "M experience" in doing so.
So much lost for such little gain.
That's the singular reason that I no longer own one and never will -- and now rejoice in the unquestioned superiority of the R-D1 (this for other reasons than just the shutter).
And as a side note, life off of the Leica bandwagon goes on just fine. I see nothing that Leica can offer me in the future (unless they let me design a camera to replace the M8) so frankly I don't give a hoot or a hollar what happens to the company -- anything film related will be available used until Kingdom Come so why should I care anymore?
Gain some higher speeds but completely destroy the "M experience" in doing so.
So much lost for such little gain.
That's the singular reason that I no longer own one and never will -- and now rejoice in the unquestioned superiority of the R-D1 (this for other reasons than just the shutter).
And as a side note, life off of the Leica bandwagon goes on just fine. I see nothing that Leica can offer me in the future (unless they let me design a camera to replace the M8) so frankly I don't give a hoot or a hollar what happens to the company -- anything film related will be available used until Kingdom Come so why should I care anymore?
Grober
Well-known
Topdog1 said:
A lot of us would have opted for the Epson R-D1 if we felt that the company was really behind their revolutionary product.
Epson wasn't and isn't so if you crave a pro digital RF camera, there's only one game in town: the M8.
(Zeiss? Got your ears on?)
-g
AusDLK
Famous Photographer
If the M8 actually *was* the only digital RF game then this player would be using only film.
Just because there might be only one game in town -- of any kind -- doesn't mean I (or anyone else) has to play.
Just because there might be only one game in town -- of any kind -- doesn't mean I (or anyone else) has to play.
pfogle
Well-known
-- except, maybe, filmAusDLK said:
roblumba
Established
Leica Improves
Leica Improves
Dave,
Sounds like you don't want Leica to improve? I don't understand the write off of Leica, not caring what they do? You have Leica bodies, correct? You don't appreciate that they made those?
In a competitive market, companies compete for the best product. If Leica is completely out of the game, then there are fewer companies to compete and less choices for consumers. I think it's better if Leica can make it through this and continue to improve their digital line up.
Perhaps their next one has a quieter shutter. It's entirely possible and unless your at the end of your human life, you may be around to see it. However Leica would have to survive and continue to improve in the digital age. I'm 35 and still have quite a few years ahead. I would like to see M mount bodies, wether Leica or RD-1 or whatever. Traditionally, Leica has been a key player, just like Canon, Nikon, etc. I think it would be a loss to consumers if Leica was not in the game.
Leica Improves
Dave,
Sounds like you don't want Leica to improve? I don't understand the write off of Leica, not caring what they do? You have Leica bodies, correct? You don't appreciate that they made those?
In a competitive market, companies compete for the best product. If Leica is completely out of the game, then there are fewer companies to compete and less choices for consumers. I think it's better if Leica can make it through this and continue to improve their digital line up.
Perhaps their next one has a quieter shutter. It's entirely possible and unless your at the end of your human life, you may be around to see it. However Leica would have to survive and continue to improve in the digital age. I'm 35 and still have quite a few years ahead. I would like to see M mount bodies, wether Leica or RD-1 or whatever. Traditionally, Leica has been a key player, just like Canon, Nikon, etc. I think it would be a loss to consumers if Leica was not in the game.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
I must be getting old or deaf or both, yes the M8 is slightly louder than the M3 for instance, more like more metallic and longer, but not by that much - I cannot say I really like the sound of the RD1 better.....For total silence I take the Digilux 2, which has about the same quality level as the RD1. Although, that still has a nearly inaudible aperture creaky kind of sound.
This would be a great idea. It might even be implementable in firmware.Mistral said:
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nrj
Member
Great idea. Even better would be the 'silent mode' that the original Konica Hexar AF had - it was hard to hear that as the photographer, never mind anyone else
Larry Kellogg
Established
AusDLK said:
It must be lonely standing in the street, as the bandwagon leaves you behind!
I don't think the shutter is all that bad but if you think it sounds terrible, you're entitled to your opinion. Most people I talk to don't hear it, maybe only the photographer hears it because it is next to his/her ear.
Party with the CV 15mm on the M8!!
http://tinyurl.com/ygtmpr
to be followed soon with a party with the 12mm!
I'm having fun shooting with the M8, that's what matters!
You probably won't be able to resist getting an M8 in the future, ha ha, even though you vehemently deny it now. If you only want film then shoot film and throw away the R-D1!
Cheers,
Larry
Andy Aitken
Registered Loser
nrj said:
C'mon now - the Hexar AF had a leaf shutter that only ran to 1/250. That's a heavy price to pay for silence. Maybe the M9 could have a little thumbwheel for cocking the shutter?
georgl
Member
The analog M-cameras have a nice-sounding, reliable (with exception of burning holes into it) but slow shutter. Photographers complaining about it since decades.
The R8/9 is a hybrid, it has manual cocking and - when needed - perfectly integrated winders. But it's still a compromise because of the additional components (gears), it's heavier, bigger and louder than integrated solutions. Photographers complaining about it since years.
So Leica put professional digital technology into the smallest body around, integrated a winder into it, gave the shutter the speed of the R8/9. What are photographers doing? Complaining...
The M8 (with free IR-filters for extremely critical situations and solved banding) has extremely high image quality over the whole frame, extraordinary build quality and compatibility and is pretty small.
You compare that to the RD-1? No service, mediocre cosina-build-quality, cheap sony-sensor (small, low resolution), no WA, mediocre viewfinder...
How many free IR-filters have you got for your 3000€-RD-1? Do they repair it?
Ok, you get nice files when you use ordinary digital technology with extraordinary lenses, I like the retro-look and noise perfomance is about the same (good, not extraordinary) - but the M8 plays in a different league.
The R8/9 is a hybrid, it has manual cocking and - when needed - perfectly integrated winders. But it's still a compromise because of the additional components (gears), it's heavier, bigger and louder than integrated solutions. Photographers complaining about it since years.
So Leica put professional digital technology into the smallest body around, integrated a winder into it, gave the shutter the speed of the R8/9. What are photographers doing? Complaining...
The M8 (with free IR-filters for extremely critical situations and solved banding) has extremely high image quality over the whole frame, extraordinary build quality and compatibility and is pretty small.
You compare that to the RD-1? No service, mediocre cosina-build-quality, cheap sony-sensor (small, low resolution), no WA, mediocre viewfinder...
How many free IR-filters have you got for your 3000€-RD-1? Do they repair it?
Ok, you get nice files when you use ordinary digital technology with extraordinary lenses, I like the retro-look and noise perfomance is about the same (good, not extraordinary) - but the M8 plays in a different league.
ywenz
Veteran
georgl: With all the talking down of the RD-1, It's hard to remember that in Sean's RD-1 vs M8 review, the RD-1 provided just as good, if not better IQ than the M8. M8 is in a different league, yes.. a different price league. That's about it. I think Leica might perfer for people to tone it down on the free IR filters. After all, what camera company wants to market their product with the line "The revolutionary M8!Now, with free IR filters!"
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georgl
Member
The M8 provides absolutely superior image-quality. The files are 80% bigger (with fully usable resolution!), dynamic range...
The Epson is a 500€ cosina with 500€ digital technology (mainly D70) sold for 3000€ - the M8 is basically a 3300€ analog M (with less mechanics of course) with unique digital technology only used in MF-backs and the DMR and sold for 4200€. When I sent my M8 for repair to Solms, they will help me, they even exchange the electronics of 10 years old R8s for free! What does Epson/Cosina do?
The RD-1 is very limited, it was too early for digital technology with RF. The M8 isn't perfect too (I want 18Mpixel full-frame - when finally possible) but it provides IQ only surpassed by much more expensive MF-backs and is a real M.
I understand that some people like certain retro-aspects of their RD-1 - but it's still a 6MP 1,5crop consumer-camera.
The Epson is a 500€ cosina with 500€ digital technology (mainly D70) sold for 3000€ - the M8 is basically a 3300€ analog M (with less mechanics of course) with unique digital technology only used in MF-backs and the DMR and sold for 4200€. When I sent my M8 for repair to Solms, they will help me, they even exchange the electronics of 10 years old R8s for free! What does Epson/Cosina do?
The RD-1 is very limited, it was too early for digital technology with RF. The M8 isn't perfect too (I want 18Mpixel full-frame - when finally possible) but it provides IQ only surpassed by much more expensive MF-backs and is a real M.
I understand that some people like certain retro-aspects of their RD-1 - but it's still a 6MP 1,5crop consumer-camera.
Sparrow
Veteran
it’s the fold-away LCD and that little clock thing, the one that looks like it came off a 1936 Alvis, that do it for me.
kevin m
Veteran
What you gain is a photographic instrument with much more capability than the antiquated M shutter provides. The M8 can be used as a daylight fill-flash camera with TTL capability that no other rangefinder has. And higher shutter speeds allow you to stop action, of course, but also to pick the aperture you like, rather than the aperture you're stuck with, without reaching for an ND filter. And an autowinder makes the camera even more ergonomic, as you can keep your eye and your attention fully on your subject. (One of the great features of the Hexar RF, BTW.)
As I said in another thread I'm still a film shooter, and I've always bought used M bodies. But if Leica made a new film M with the M8 shutter, I'd order one ala-carte tomorrow. (Black Chrome with engraved top plate and the faux vulcanite, please!
) A camera like that would mean that a pair of M bodies would be all I need to shoot a wedding, and I could leave my Canon with its big lenses, big flash, big everything at home. A big part of the "experience" of shooting a Leica M for me has to include results that I can see in a print, and the M8 shutter would allow that, and lose precious little in the bargain.
Leica should make the MP for all the die-hards and traditionalists and modernize the M7.
Ben Z
Veteran
Sparrow said:
It's the $1400 price tag and the non-need for infared filters that do it for me
One day I might get a Leica M digital. But not as long as I have to put a filter on my lenses so blacks don't look purple. Pardon me but that's just plain dumb. The RD-1 has darned decent image quality, and so does my 20D. Plus my M6 still works fine and and last I looked I could still buy a bunch of different kinds of film for <$5/roll. In a perverse sort of way I'm almost relieved the M8 turned out the way it did, I really shouldn't have been even thinking about spending that kind of dough.
R
RML
Guest
I don't have any spare money now so a second R-D1 isn't in the picture. I hope I can still get one by the time I need to replace it (hopefully a looooooooooooooong time from now). If not, I hope there'll be another dRF available at a reasonable price. For me, $5000 is NOT reasonable for a digital camera, no matter how much people try to justify it for themselves. I like the new $1500 price level of the R-D1. I hope in the future I can get a dRF for a similar price.
rvaubel
Well-known
RML said:
RML
Hopefully, your RD1 will last long enough for the price of a used M8 to fall to what you initially paid for your RD1.
Rex
iml
Well-known
georgl said:
I do wish somebody would actually post some evidence of this. I'm just not seeing it, even with the few raw files I've seen.
Ian