One Roll in Two Roll Tank

[bwcolor]

When developing one roll in a two roll tank, it seems to me that you need to bring the developer up to a set concentration, so you would use the correct volume of developer for two rolls, but I have seen suggestions of 3ml per roll with stand development of Rodinal, sometimes in a tank that is only half full of film.

How best to develop with a partially full tank?

 

[Roger Hicks]

1 Second (empty) reel on top to keep the lower reel in place.

2 Enough dev to cover the lower reel. No need for more.

That's it.

Cheers,

R.

 

[MartinP]

What Roger said, providing that there is enough actual developer in the solution to develop the film. With extremely low dilutions that could be the limiting factor and result in needing a bit more volume to be able to include the raw material at the desired concentration. On the other hand, maybe manufacturers always tell us the minimum is higher than actually required for the sake of consistency?

I did a quick Google and 6ml of Rodinal at 1:50 is apparently widely recommended as a minimum, for 35mm or 120. For some reason I thought it would be 4ml. I really should try the bottle I bought !

 

[bwcolor]

I understand that I want to fill the tank and use a second reel. If would normally use 10ml of rodinal in a two (35mm) reel tank, do I still use 10ml when developing only one reel of film?


Again, upon reading some of the discussions of stand development with Rodinal it is suggested that one use, for example, 3ml per roll and they use 6ml for two rolls in a four roll tank, or in a two roll tank. This is what confused me.

 

[Beemermark]

I always fill the tank, whether one roll or two. It ensures the films stays submerged while agitating. The only side to filling with only 8 oz and saving the costs of the developer. I'm not quite that cheap - close, but not quite. Depending on the developer you can always use it for one more roll.

 

[ItsReallyDarren]

I think the OP's concern with only loading one reel in a two reel tank and filling all the way is the possibility of over-development when there is enough Rodinal to develop two reels.

I would say continue to use 10ml for one reel.

 

[degruyl]

Stand development is slightly different from normal development. In stand developing, you are looking for the minimum concentration of developer that gives consistent results in a set period of time. You want the developer to be almost exhausted. This is where the minimum numbers come in to play.

With normal developing (D76 1+1 or Rodinal 1+25 or 1+50) you want the developer to be above half the original concentration when you are done developing. In the case of reusable developer, well above half.

So, what I do: Use 1+100 and make sure I have over 3ml / roll. This means that you cannot use a single roll tank for 1+100, since 303 ml is greater than the ~240-250 ml capacity of those tanks. The same for two rolls in a two roll tank (606 > 500). The obvious way around this is to use a larger vessel. You do not need to have the tank full (as Roger said).

Another piece of information: I use 1+125 Rodinal for semi-stand developing of 8x10 sheet film (the same amount of emulsion as a single roll of 35mm, 36 exposures). The tank I use this in has a capacity of 1250 ml (to ensure film coverage). I use 10 ml of Rodinal, not the 3 ml minimum. I am considering reducing the concentration, but that is my base point right now.

(I removed the little bit of kinetics and diffusivity handwaving that I wrote... if you are really interested, I can wave my hands again).

 

[morback]

I use 1:100 in stand and always fill my 2 reel tank to the brim. No matter if it's 1 35mm roll, 2x35mm or a single 120. It's always 5ml of Rodinal with 495ml of water (I guess that makes it 1:99). Results are always constant.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Sure. If you need 3 ml/roll, use 3 ml/roll. But do this at the normal concentration, not a higher concentration, so you use (say) 350 ml/roll of diluted solution at standard strength instead of 225 ml/roll.

I seriously doubt that ANY developer at normal strength will exhaust if there is enough of it to cover the film, though I wrote to one of the inventors of Xtol about this and was told that yes, it could; without, however, any explanation of the chemistry. I remain suspicious.

I am also suspicious that most Rodinal recipes rely on a wild excess, even after oxidation, and that minima are to allow for VERY high oxidation of the developing agent.

Remember: you need only tiny amounts of developing agent. Consider a Polaroid 4x5, where a teaspoon of dev suffices for pos and neg, or a 2-bath dev where all the developing agent is in the first bath. The rest is normally just to wet the film quickly and evenly.

Cheers,

R.

 

[bwcolor]

So, in a non-stand environment if I use 10ml of Rodinal in a double tank with two rolls of film, I will have the same results as one roll in the same tank, as long as I continue to use the 10ml of Rodinal. In other words, it is the concentration that is important and not how many rolls sit in the tank.

 

[Roger Hicks]

So, in a non-stand environment if I use 10ml of Rodinal in a double tank with two rolls of film, I will have the same results as on roll in the same tank, as long as I continue to use the 10ml of Rodinal. In other words, it is the concentration that is important and not how many rolls sit in the tank.

Yes, though you also need to state the dilution, which should remain constant. You could almost certainly use 5 ml of dev and half the amount of water for 1 roll, if you use 10 ml and the full amount for 2 rolls.

Cheers,

R.

 

[sevo]

So, in a non-stand environment if I use 10ml of Rodinal in a double tank with two rolls of film, I will have the same results as one roll in the same tank, as long as I continue to use the 10ml of Rodinal. In other words, it is the concentration that is important and not how many rolls sit in the tank.

Provided that you stick to the same concentration (dilution of stock) and remain in a safe distance of depletion level, yes.

Manufacturers recommendations for most one-shot developers are so that you can't deplete if the developer covers the film in any regular tank type. But watch out with high dilution developers or when using one-shot developers a second time - while the regular Rodinal 1+50 is depletion safe, experiments with higher dilution Rodinal or a second run through Rodinal 1+50 are not, and you may need more developer than needed to cover the film...

As a practical example: You can not develop a roll of 220 (or two 120 in a double loaded holder) with 420ml of Rodinal 1+200 in a narrow width Jobo tank, as it takes at least 4ml of Rodinal stock to develop one roll of ISO400 220, and you are down to 2.1ml in that volume - the film would stay rather pale, regardless of how long you develop. One 120 in the same amount would do - but for 220 you'd need a bigger tank as you need a minimum filling of 800ml, or you'll have to make do with 1+100 (which however has other properties than 1+200).

Sevo

 

[sevo]

Yes, though you also need to state the dilution, which should remain constant. You could almost certainly use 5 ml of dev and half the amount of water for 1 roll, if you use 10 ml and the full amount for 2 rolls.

Chemically yes. But check first whether the safe volume for one film indeed is half that for two - often there is some constant volume at the bottom of the tank to account for, and it might take a bit more than half the liquid to cover one film.

Sevo

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Sure. If you need 3 ml/roll, use 3 ml/roll. But do this at the normal concentration, not a higher concentration, so you use (say) 350 ml/roll of diluted solution at standard strength instead of 225 ml/roll.

I seriously doubt that ANY developer at normal strength will exhaust if there is enough of it to cover the film, though I wrote to one of the inventors of Xtol about this and was told that yes, it could; without, however, any explanation of the chemistry. I remain suspicious.

I am also suspicious that most Rodinal recipes rely on a wild excess, even after oxidation, and that minima are to allow for VERY high oxidation of the developing agent.

Remember: you need only tiny amounts of developing agent. Consider a Polaroid 4x5, where a teaspoon of dev suffices for pos and neg, or a 2-bath dev where all the developing agent is in the first bath. The rest is normally just to wet the film quickly and evenly.

Cheers,

R.

Xtol will die if used diluted in too small a tank or a big tank with too many films. I have had it happen and it was not pretty. Thin negs with no shadow detail. I did side by side comparisons after that happened and the film I developed in a large enough tank all the way full were ok, the one i did in too-dilute xtol were severely underdeveloped.

 

[raytoei@gmail.com]

bwcolor,

FYI. I do stand development with 5ml of rodinal with 500ml of water for my paterson tank, regardless of whether it is for one or two rolls of film.

For 2 roll development, I have done 2 x roll XP-2 film, 1 XP2 and 1 Tmax 400, 1 Acros and 1 Lucky 100, 2 x Lucky 100.

I have done less than 20 rolls of film development thus far but my results are encouraging. I find that while concentration is important, film type and agitation affects the outcome more.

For example, I have had consistent outcomes with Rodinal and ilford films such as XP-2, Delta 100, Pan 400 and HPF+, although the last 2 film produces lots of grain which is less of a problem to me than streaks or patchy highlights.

Somehow I get inconsistent development with Acros 100 and Tmax 400 and APX 400. I am not sure if it is due to the film alone or my agitation method (too vigorous in the first 60 seconds vs Gentle Inversions).

hope I didn't confuse you more 🙂

raytoei