One year later, the DF: any comment?

[VertovSvilova]

Robert, the whole point of Df is to move the essential control of the camera back into physical dials instead of requiring us to navigate menus.

If you look at the top view of the camera, you'll see that everything that is necessary for manual photography is there. The only thing missing is aperture control, which depends on the lens you use.

I really don't mean to belabor things or sound at all negative about the controls of the Df, but I think that this is a general misconception. One does NOT have to navigate the menu on any Nikon DSLR in order to operate the 'essential control of the camera.' The menu is turned off when using a Nikon DSLR. The essential controls are the front and rear wheels (and the aperture ring can still be used on any pre-AFS-G lens.) ISO is a button with the wheel to change the setting (which appears in the viewfinder and the top plate LCD; the Df has a top plate LCD too, although it's smaller.) The Df also has these same wheels in ADDITION to the 'old school style' dials on the top plate with numbers inscribed (along with a 'menu diving' auto ISO option which nulls the ISO dial.) That is really the only difference in operation. All settings appear in the viewfinder of all Nikon DSLRs (including the Df.) The Df still requires menu diving for certain settings as do the other DSLRs.

The Df can be used like any of the Nikon DSLRs. And any Nikon DSLR can be used as simply as the Df but just without the 'analog' dials on the top plate; no menu diving is necessary. The difference is the top plate dials, and the shape, weight, and size of the Df camera body. And of course, it shares the excellent sensor of the D4/D4s. If one feels more comfortable with using top plate engraved dials instead of front and rear wheels and relying on the viewfinder (or the top plate LCD) for affirmation of settings, then the Df would be the choice. But there is no need to navigate menus in any Nikon DSLR any more than the need to navigate the menu on the Df (you still need the menu in both cameras for particular settings.)

btw, the Df is 3mm shorter than the new D750, and 3mm longer. The depth of the Df is 11.5 mm narrower than the D750 (the D750 has a much more pronounced front grip and the finder prism sticks out more; it has a pop-up flash in it.) The Df weighs about 10% less than the D750.

The Df has added top plate 'analog dials' to the Nikon front and rear wheel paradigm. And it has designed the camera to appear to look more like pre-F4/5/6 film cameras (and the current 'wheel' system started with the F5.) If this makes one's image making process more enjoyable, and the D4/D4s sensor is wanted, then the Df is a logical choice.

 

[faris]

The Nikon Df is a Nikon. Not Leica, not Sony, Canon etc.
Either it suits one or not. There is no compulsion to buy, any one make. Get an alternative and enjoy whatever suits one.

M mount lenses are made to perform their best on a M mount cam.
Who cares how a M mount lens performs on a Sony camera. If there is a complaint tell Sony about the cam or Leica or Zeiss or Voigtlander about it.

Complaint on forums about different mount lenses on different mount bodies is beyond understanding.

Just my PoV. Yours, of course, is yours.

 

[Highway 61]

This has been demonstrated on the DPR forums numerous times. Let me know if you would like a link. I believe there's even been interviews published with Nikon engineers where they confirmed this behaviour, which is designed to me more helpful in guiding MF, but simply isn't in the absence of multiple indicators for focus.

Yes please !

Post those links, as well as the "interviews published by the Nikon engineers". Thanks.

 

[andrew00]

I'm thinking about the Df.

Has anyone used it with longer telephoto lenses like the Nikon 100mm or 135mm?

Is it ok to use a) from the position of weight and b) from the position of required stability?

Or is it too front heavy or poorly weighted to hold still to get a good shot?

 

[dasuess]

I'm thinking about the Df.

Has anyone used it with longer telephoto lenses like the Nikon 100mm or 135mm?

Is it ok to use a) from the position of weight and b) from the position of required stability?

Or is it too front heavy or poorly weighted to hold still to get a good shot?

I use my Df with a 105 Nikkor all the time, handheld all the time. No problem. No different than when I used it with my F. I also use it with a 180 and 200, but it is better to sit and brace yourself with those lenses.

My own feeling is that the Df feels better in the hand than an F.

 

[Roger Hicks]

I'm thinking about the Df.

Has anyone used it with longer telephoto lenses like the Nikon 100mm or 135mm?

Is it ok to use a) from the position of weight and b) from the position of required stability?

Or is it too front heavy or poorly weighted to hold still to get a good shot?

Works fine for me. Not tried anything over 200 yet.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Roger Hicks]

I really don't mean to belabor things or sound at all negative about the controls of the Df, but I think that this is a general misconception. One does NOT have to navigate the menu on any Nikon DSLR in order to operate the 'essential control of the camera.' The menu is turned off when using a Nikon DSLR. The essential controls are the front and rear wheels (and the aperture ring can still be used on any pre-AFS-G lens.) ISO is a button with the wheel to change the setting (which appears in the viewfinder and the top plate LCD; the Df has a top plate LCD too, although it's smaller.) The Df also has these same wheels in ADDITION to the 'old school style' dials on the top plate with numbers inscribed (along with a 'menu diving' auto ISO option which nulls the ISO dial.) That is really the only difference in operation. All settings appear in the viewfinder of all Nikon DSLRs (including the Df.) The Df still requires menu diving for certain settings as do the other DSLRs.

The Df can be used like any of the Nikon DSLRs. And any Nikon DSLR can be used as simply as the Df but just without the 'analog' dials on the top plate; no menu diving is necessary. The difference is the top plate dials, and the shape, weight, and size of the Df camera body. And of course, it shares the excellent sensor of the D4/D4s. If one feels more comfortable with using top plate engraved dials instead of front and rear wheels and relying on the viewfinder (or the top plate LCD) for affirmation of settings, then the Df would be the choice. But there is no need to navigate menus in any Nikon DSLR any more than the need to navigate the menu on the Df (you still need the menu in both cameras for particular settings.)

btw, the Df is 3mm shorter than the new D750, and 3mm longer. The depth of the Df is 11.5 mm narrower than the D750 (the D750 has a much more pronounced front grip and the finder prism sticks out more; it has a pop-up flash in it.) The Df weighs about 10% less than the D750.

The Df has added top plate 'analog dials' to the Nikon front and rear wheel paradigm. And it has designed the camera to appear to look more like pre-F4/5/6 film cameras (and the current 'wheel' system started with the F5.) If this makes one's image making process more enjoyable, and the D4/D4s sensor is wanted, then the Df is a logical choice.

The "general misconception", surely, is that the haptics of front and rear wheels are anything like a conventional shutter speed dial or aperture ring.

Cheers,

R.

 

[shadowfox]

I really don't mean to belabor things or sound at all negative about the controls of the Df, but I think that this is a general misconception. One does NOT have to navigate the menu on any Nikon DSLR in order to operate the 'essential control of the camera.' The menu is turned off when using a Nikon DSLR. The essential controls are the front and rear wheels (and the aperture ring can still be used on any pre-AFS-G lens.) ISO is a button with the wheel to change the setting (which appears in the viewfinder and the top plate LCD;

Okay, since you brought it up... consider this:

Selecting the aperture/shutter speed/ISO by turning the wheels to change the numbers which appear in the top LCD = Using a menu system.

The only difference is that the menu is not on the big preview LCD in the back.

The Df's dials... now those are not menus. 😀

 

[VertovSvilova]

Okay, since you brought it up... consider this:

Selecting the aperture/shutter speed/ISO by turning the wheels to change the numbers which appear in the top LCD = Using a menu system.

The only difference is that the menu is not on the big preview LCD in the back.

The Df's dials... now those are not menus. 😀

That's incorrect. All the setting numbers also appear in the VIEWFINDER. You never have to remove your eye from the finder for all the 'essentials.' It's exactly like the film F5 and F6 paradigm (and was designed for speed and efficiency.) Same with the Df viewfinder. And the Df also has a front and rear wheel and one can operate it just like a regular Nikon DSLR if so desired.

But the DIFFERENCE is that the camera has analog top plate dials. This is the 'return to pure photography' that Nikon has marketed.

Some people keep saying that current Nikon DSLRs have too many options and too much menu diving in order to use them. But that's not true. They can be set up to be used as simply as an F3. I have an F3 and I use my Nikon DSLRs the same way (and with manual focus legacy Nikkors.) I use the top plate dials of the F3 by touch while looking through the viewfinder to see the changes; this keeps my eye on the viewfinder. With my DSLRs I use the wheels by touch. If I had a Df, I'd do the same (and with a choice of wheels or top plate dials.)

The difference with the Df is the top plate dials and the size, weight, etc.. It looks more like a 'conventional' film camera (although the F5 and F6 already broke that mold.) And Roger mentioned haptics; yes!! that's exactly what I said in my post: if one enjoys the use of top plate engraved dials over the 'wheel' paradigm, then the Df is the logical choice. A lot of people skipped over the F5 and F6 and never adapted to the modern Nikon paradigm (that was carried over to the D2/D3 digital.) For them, it's about the haptics of dials (and again, I understand completely; I'm also a user of the F3 and the Leica M4 and M6.)

But to say that modern DSLRs require 'menu diving' for essential use is absolutely incorrect (the Df also has the SAME menu system as all the modern Nikon DSLRs. And you need to use the menu to set the camera up just like all modern Nikon DSLRs.) For those of you who complain that Nikon DSLRs users have never used a Df (as I've already said I wanted to buy one and rented one for a week) and don't 'get it,' it seems to me that you've never really used a F5/F6 or current DSLR in depth, either. Please read my previous posts; the Df is a good idea. In the end I just wasn't sold on getting one, but that was a personal preference (as I clearly stated.)

The Df has a great sensor in a smaller package. And it has 'conventional' top plate dials. If this is important, then it's an excellent choice. And which is what I already said in my previous post. 🙂

 

[fireblade]

What does "pure photography" actually mean?

You gotta ask Nikon, they used it as their marketing hype for the DF.
If you email them and get a response let us know.

 

[RichC]

Just to be clear, this [switching to manual focus on the camera body] is absolutely INCORRECT. If you focus a MF lens on a Df in AF mode it will be incredibly precise with regard to focus. NEVER switch to MF mode when using an MF lens because it increases the focus tolerances...

This has been demonstrated on the DPR forums numerous times. Let me know if you would like a link. I believe there's even been interviews published with Nikon engineers where they confirmed this behaviour.

This sounds like total garbage to me. Proof and links please. (The DP Review forums are full of misinformation.)

Why would Nikon create a manual focus mode that works worse than autofocus for focusing!? 🙄

As I understand it, the MF switch on the body simply decouples the autofocus screw on the lens mount so that you're not fighting this screw when manual focusing older autofocus lenses.

 

[johannielscom]

This sounds like total garbage to me. Proof and links please. (The DP Review forums are full of misinformation.)

Why would Nikon create a manual focus mode that works worse than autofocus for focusing!? 🙄

As I understand it, the MF switch on the body simply decouples the autofocus screw on the lens mount so that you're not fighting this screw when manual focusing older autofocus lenses.

Explaining the obvious IMHO, but if it's a question it can do with an answer so here goes.

From a marketing standpoint it would be totally viable to have the camera's green RF dot behaviour display a bigger latitude when focusing manually. Because it serves Nikon's sales purposes to on the one hand enable manual focusing, while on the other hand emphasise the fact that focusing manually 'is hard to do' and people should buy an AF lens to make sure they nail the focus.

It would be easy as pie from an engineering standpoint to have the camera increase its contrast range for the green RF dot to come on when the switch is set to manual, resulting in extended green dot latitude.

Now, whether all this is fact or fiction still seems unclear, but for now I'd say either option is a viable one.

I've been shooting AF and video this last week, no manual lenses and haven't had any spare time either to investigate this but I'll give it a whirl next week and see if there's any truth to the story. Meantime, links from the original poster of this greatly appreciated indeed!

 

[VertovSvilova]

This sounds like total garbage to me. Proof and links please. (The DP Review forums are full of misinformation.)

Why would Nikon create a manual focus mode that works worse than autofocus for focusing!? 🙄

As I understand it, the MF switch on the body simply decouples the autofocus screw on the lens mount so that you're not fighting this screw when manual focusing older autofocus lenses.

The person who designed DotTune (an autofocus tuning method) mentions this as a phenomenon with Nikon cameras only. See the YouTube video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zE50jCUPhM and note in his description under "Important Update for Nikon Owners" (click on 'Show More' under the video.) The theory is somewhat explained but I haven't seen any direct reference or documentation (e.g., 'interviews with Nikon engineers.') I don't read DP Review so I can't say what's going on there. But this is the only place that I've ever seen it mentioned; i.e., it comes from the DotTune author.

I normally leave my camera bodies on AF only because I'm either too lazy or too forgetful to switch when I mount an AIS/AI Nikkor lens. But I don't have issues with missed focus; manually focusing on any of the current Nikon DSLR bodies seem the same to me (including the Df.)

 

[Highway 61]

Please read my previous posts; the Df is a good idea. In the end I just wasn't sold on getting one, but that was a personal preference (as I clearly stated.)

I fully share your points of view about the Df, what's good with it, and what's very deceptive.

Unfortunately there are people out there focusing (without playing on words 😀) on cosmetics, so that the external dials marketing trick worked well to sell the camera to them, because the form factor of the other DSLRs don't please them.

So, the so-called "hate vs love" debates about the Df almost all were about its external look and its aesthetics, whereas very few of those debates regarded the innards of the beast.

What the Df should have featured (IMO) :

- small body (how the sensor mothercard is built on the D750 fully proves that it is possible to get thinner DSLRs bodies even with a FF sensor)
- exceptional build quality with top notch materials all over the body and a full-metal jacket
- sleek and clean design, with fewer buttons and fewer external ports
- 100% VF with HP eyepiece and eyepiece shutter
- interchangeable focusing screens and flippable Ai tab
- no built-in flash but a PC socket
- serious memory card door, not shared with the battery
- dual SD cards slots
- high-end battery (EN-EL15 or whatever similar)

This could have very well come as a DSLR of the "tub of lard" (geez, what an expression 😀) form factor or whatever : the coding wheels are as good as the external dials when associated to a good LCD top panel indeed.

External dials are OK, well implemented coding wheels + good LCD top panel are OK, having installed the two systems on the same camera is just nuts.

The person who designed DotTune (an autofocus tuning method) mentions this as a phenomenon with Nikon cameras only. See the YouTube video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zE50jCUPhM and note in his description under "Important Update for Nikon Owners" (click on 'Show More' under the video.) The theory is somewhat explained but I haven't seen any direct reference or documentation (e.g., 'interviews with Nikon engineers.') I don't read DP Review so I can't say what's going on there. But this is the only place that I've ever seen it mentioned; i.e., it comes from the DotTune author.

I normally leave my camera bodies on AF only because I'm either too lazy or too forgetful to switch when I mount an AIS/AI Nikkor lens. But I don't have issues with missed focus; manually focusing on any of the current Nikon DSLR bodies seem the same to me (including the Df.)

Interesting, thanks.

Note : leaving the switch on AF isn't dangerous at all with either AF-S or Ai/Ai-S Nikkors. It's only with AF and AF-D Nikkors that it must not be done.

I'll watch the video and proceed to some personal testing too...

 

[robert blu]

exactly[/U] what I said in my post: if one enjoys the use of top plate engraved dials over the 'wheel' paradigm, then the Df is the logical choice. A lot of people skipped over the F5 and F6 and never adapted to the modern Nikon paradigm (that was carried over to the D2/D3 digital.) For them, it's about the haptics of dials (and again, I understand completely; I'm also a user of the F3 and the Leica M4 and M6.)

In my cased probably haptic is the key word. When I buy a camera, which doesn't happen very oft I always have to find a compromise between my rational thoughts (like IQ, sensor, weight,...) and my irrational (emotive?) ideas where the possibility to feel connected to the camera has a great part.

Size and possibility to operate through the physical wheels plays a great role in this. When shooting SLR even if my F100 has excellent qualities I prefer to use the old FM2, probably because a more "traditional" simple use of the commands.

robert
PS: of course I understand that aperture and shutter speed can be operate through the wheels in the conventional DSLRs, let say I do not like that so much!

 

[Highway 61]

PS: of course I understand that aperture and shutter speed can be operate through the wheels in the conventional DSLRs, let say I do not like that so much!

Robert, with the Nikon cheap "tubs of lard" 🙂D) and Ai/Ai-S lenses, you set the exposure mode on A then set the aperture by turning the lens aperture wheel, and you focus by turning the lens focusing ring... so, you almost never touch any of the coding wheels but for adjusting the ISOs...

Let's come to this reality : with digital, you very seldom use the M mode, because the A mode coupled to the exposure lock in weighted-centered metering mode (by keeping the shutter release half-depressed) works terrific.

Especially when you think of this : with using manual focus Nikkors, this technique is the fastest ever for both locking the exposure somewhere and focusing somewhere else. No need to change yourself into Shiva jiggling with the AF joystick and depressing the AE-L button at the same time, while grabbing the camera with your third hand... 😉

While it's easy to get exposure errors in M mode, thus lots of post-processing work trying to recover (and remember : clipped highlights are still hard to recover, even with modern sensors and RAW files : when it's clipped it's clipped).

And : if you use some Ai and Ai-S lenses, the P and S modes can't be used.

At the end of the day with a Df and your Ai and Ai-S lenses you will find yourself leaving the camera on A for more than 99% of the time, and you will use the center-weighted exposure mode coupled to the half-depressed shutter button exposure lock technique and permanently set the exposure compensation to -1/3 to minimize the risk of clipping the highlights.

So, the Df won't do anything for you which a D610 can't... 😉

 

[Roger Hicks]

. . .
At the end of the day with a Df and your Ai and Ai-S lenses you will find yourself leaving the camera on A for more than 99% of the time, and you will use the center-weighted exposure mode coupled to the half-depressed shutter button exposure lock technique and permanently set the exposure compensation to -1/3 to minimize the risk of clipping the highlights. . . .

Speak for yourself. I use it mostly in the studio on manual.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Highway 61]

Speak for yourself. I use it mostly in the studio on manual.

Cheers,

R.

I was speaking to Robert, who will use his DSLR mostly outdoors. Speak for yourself as well.

Cheers,

N.

 

[willie_901]

Why would Nikon create a manual focus mode that works worse than autofocus for focusing!? 🙄

How much of Nikon's lens profits come from AF lenses vs MF lenses? What motivation does Nikon have to ensure non-AI, AI and AIS lenses usage is the very best it can be on their DSLRs? Nikon makes more money and more profit when people give up on MF lenses and buy new AF lenses. The amount of profit they can make serving a niche market of people who prefer to use MF lenses is insignificant.

That's why.

 

[JHP]

I use mine only on M mode. Why else would you buy a DF?