OT: NY Times "Younger people...have never had a viewfinder experience."

bmattock

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I found this article interesting. Most of us have noticed that those who use digicams seem to prefer framing using the LCD over using a traditional viewfinder, and then chimping over the results immediately following the shot. I find this interesting, not because of the ever-present film-vs-digital wars, but rather because this perhaps represents a sea-change in the way we look at technology.

At one time, auto-exposure was not to be completely trusted. Sure, you could use it - but you always did a 'sanity check' to make sure the settings seemed appropriate before pressing the shutter. The same could be said for auto-focus. Use it, but don't just blindly trust it to always be right.

However, when you're using a digicam for photography, you generally don't have access to manual settings - or they are buried deep in menus and require much button-pushing to get to. The same for manual focus - perhaps it can be done, after a fashion, but it is really hard to force the typical digicam from doing auto-focus all the time. Not a lot different from a traditional PnS in that sense.

However, if you're holding an LCD at arm's length, you have no choice but to depend on extreme DOF and auto-focus to do the job for you; same thing for auto-exposure.

I was taking photos at a public event recently, and I wondered where the press photographer was. This was an event that was usually covered. There was only me and some young guy with what appeared to be a cheap 'bridge style' digicam of the Kodak or HP sort - you know the kind. Looks vaguely like an SLR, but shrunk down - they usually have an EVF instead of an optical viewfinder, and of course the lens cannot be removed. I took him to be an enthusiast like myself.

I found out later that he's with the newspaper. The paper (admittedly a small-town independent) is no longer buying expensive SLR or digital SLR cameras for its reporters and photographers - it is buying cheap 6-8mp digicams. This allows them to stay up with technology without spending a lot on rapidly-depreciating equipment that is easily lost, stolen, or broken anyway. Since the photo quality is probably quite enough for a newspaper's needs, I guess it makes sense. I recall reading a thread here recently about a journalist in Iraq who is using Olympus C8080's instead of dSLR's, so I guess it is catching on.

Anyway, I find it interesting that a shift has taken place. Those using the LCD for their photos are clearly depending on AE and AF working properly, and they're somewhat mystified (according to the article) about what a viewfinder would be used for anyway. This seems to me to indicate that the younger generation considers propery exposure and focus to be the domain of the camera's electronics, while they simply concentrate on framing and composition (one hopes).

However, on the down side, I note that another story in the news today involves a criminal case against an accused illicit-drug maker who was found 'not guilty' because the police's digital camera malfunctioned when used to photograph the evidence before it was destroyed by the police for safety reasons. I present both links here. The NY Times story requires registration, I believe, which if I am not mistaken is free - at least I have it and I've never paid them anything.

http://www.timesnews.net/article.php?id=3643095

Jury acquits Hawkins man of meth manufacturing charges
Published 06/09/2006
By JEFF BOBO -Kingsport Times-News
...
Most damaging to the prosecution's case, however, was the lack of photographic evidence of the meth lab due to a reported malfunction of Depew's digital camera that day.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/07/technology/circuits/07viewfinder.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

June 7, 2006
Trends
A Liberated View of the World as Viewfinders Eclipse Eyepieces
By MICHEL MARRIOTT
CAST an eye around any occasion that brings out the shutterbug in us, and chances are you will see point-and-shoot digital cameras. Few consumer technologies have been so readily adopted as filmless electronic cameras.

Digital cameras' overwhelming success has left obvious casualties, like film. But something more fundamental has also been lost, photographers and camera makers say: Millions of people no longer see eye-to-eyepiece with their cameras. It has been such a subtle shift that digital photographers, without realizing it, are developing a new relationship with their cameras. They are no longer looking through the camera but holding it at arms' length.

Pressing a camera to your face and peering into its optical viewfinder — an intimate human-machine moment — is becoming quaint, if not antiquated, for a generation of photographers who prefer to study their cameras' liquid-crystal display screens at a distance.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
Hey Bill,

At a wedding the other week the "pros" were using Nikon DSLRs, and of course framing through the viewfinder. Thing is, instead of just concentrating on the action, they were checking the LCDs after almost every shot. Now, I haven't shot a wedding professionally since the early 1990s, but it seems to me that a lot could be missed by constantly checking the results.

Also, I do not consider myself a pro, I just shoot for my own mental health these days so maybe I'm missing something.

This may tie into the thread about modern equipment and comitment to the process too. I know my stuff has been, with a few exceptions, pretty mediocre since I picked up a camera again in '03. This may be changing since I'm switching from C41 to processing traditional B&W film in the kitchen so I may be more apt to not "waste" film.

Later,
Greg
 
The other day my wife thrust her digicam into my chest and asked me to snap a few pics of the kids. I held it up to my face and squinted through the viewfinder. She gave me a lecture on how "that's not how a camera works". We never got those pictures of the kids.

p.s. Bill, you sound like you're mumbling a bit. What's up?
 
Bill

Isn't the whole act really looking at a virtual picture of a virtual picture? 😀

The LCD viewfinder does resemble what is seen on the back of a view camera, but not inverted, or the screen of a waist-level screen on a reflex camera. The one thing that the LCD screen shares with these cameras' 'viewer' is that the image is seen as a flat, two dimensional image, observed from a distance. There should be compositional advantages with this method of viewing.

I showed a TLR to a group of young photographers whose camera experiences have been mostly limited to P&S digicams and cellphone cameras. Their reactions (translated to English) would sound something like this: "Cool! Is that the camera's LCD screen?"...or worse, "Is that how the ancient LCD screens looked?" 😀

Jay
 
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Kragmeister said:
Hey Bill,

At a wedding the other week the "pros" were using Nikon DSLRs, and of course framing through the viewfinder. Thing is, instead of just concentrating on the action, they were checking the LCDs after almost every shot. Now, I haven't shot a wedding professionally since the early 1990s, but it seems to me that a lot could be missed by constantly checking the results.

Also, I do not consider myself a pro, I just shoot for my own mental health these days so maybe I'm missing something.

This may tie into the thread about modern equipment and comitment to the process too. I know my stuff has been, with a few exceptions, pretty mediocre since I picked up a camera again in '03. This may be changing since I'm switching from C41 to processing traditional B&W film in the kitchen so I may be more apt to not "waste" film.

Later,
Greg

In some ways, the suggestion is being made that people are changing in a rather fundamental way. For one thing, we are waaaaaay beyond what Edwin Land originated - instant prints. A minute? A minute? We haven't got a full minute, what are you, insane? We want it now! Now, now, now! And cheap! And now! Did I mention cheap?

In other ways, the changes may even be phyisical - I kid you not! I read a news item not long ago that suggested that kids today, due to the required use of the thumb in gaming as well as using the ubiquitous 'Blackberry' PDA was leading to a reprised functionality for the prehensile thumb. Not just 'opposable' but 'prehensile' like a monkey and his tail.

In short - kids today can do things with their thumbs that we oldsters simply cannot fathom. It's the kind of jaw-dropping ability that we note when we see a person born without upper limbs who has learned to use their feet in place of hands - it dazzles the eye and confounds the senses because we 'know' that's not possible - and yet it is.

So we may well end up moving in to a realm of digicams that depend upon this prehensile control of the thumb - cameras that we wrinklies not only can't grok, but physically cannot make use of.

How's THAT thought to make you feel old?

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
BrianShaw said:
p.s. Bill, you sound like you're mumbling a bit. What's up?

Mphmphamphamph! [Translation: I don't want to get kicked off here for speaking my opinion honestly, so I'm ignoring all threads that are full of self-congratulatory nonsense and other blather instead of taking them on and wrecking their day with cold hard facts, clear concise logic, and dazzling displays of intellectual prowess.]

Best Regards,

Bill "I stifled myself" Mattocks
 
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bmattock said:
edit

So we may well end up moving in to a realm of digicams that depend upon this prehensile control of the thumb - cameras that we wrinklies not only can't grok, but physically cannot make use of.

How's THAT thought to make you feel old?

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

So that’s it! I thought it was me that was thick!!
 
One heretical change I'd like to see come about, is dispensing with the flapping mirror but keeping the interchangable lenses for mid-grade cameras. Now EVERY camera can be a rangefinder. Bwa ha ha even while using K-mount or other mount lenses!!! Are you pondering what I'm pondering?

No seriously, the EVF is a fundamental technology shift that hasn't seen its full impact realized. And IMO it's as fundamental as TLR/SLR/RF/View, it's a category on equal with them in every way. Yes there are tradeoffs, just like a TLR has, or an SLR has. You are still seeing a preview with the aperture wide open - but you get that with your SLR & the TLR as well, and the RF doesn't even pretend to give it to you.

I know we'll likely never see an interchangeable lens EVF camera WITHOUT the LCD on the back, but... somehow I think it's a very logical animal. I'd let em keep the composite TV out if they want, it is useful once in a while in the field. If they can give me that camera with the ability to focus manually, and knobs or <gasp> rings for aperture & shutter. 22/16/11/8/5.6/4/2.8/Auto has been with us for many many years. Why bury it under a menu?
 
XAos said:
One heretical change I'd like to see come about, is dispensing with the flapping mirror but keeping the interchangable lenses for mid-grade cameras. Now EVERY camera can be a rangefinder. Bwa ha ha even while using K-mount or other mount lenses!!! Are you pondering what I'm pondering?

No seriously, the EVF is a fundamental technology shift that hasn't seen its full impact realized. And IMO it's as fundamental as TLR/SLR/RF/View, it's a category on equal with them in every way. Yes there are tradeoffs, just like a TLR has, or an SLR has. You are still seeing a preview with the aperture wide open - but you get that with your SLR & the TLR as well, and the RF doesn't even pretend to give it to you.

I know we'll likely never see an interchangeable lens EVF camera WITHOUT the LCD on the back, but... somehow I think it's a very logical animal. I'd let em keep the composite TV out if they want, it is useful once in a while in the field. If they can give me that camera with the ability to focus manually, and knobs or <gasp> rings for aperture & shutter. 22/16/11/8/5.6/4/2.8/Auto has been with us for many many years. Why bury it under a menu?

I believe you can get what you're asking for with a Ricoh GR Digital. However, I note with sadness - no optical viewfinder (external clip-on) and with a very wide lens (equiv. to 28mm) and a very small sensor (the usual digicam 1 1/8"), there is not much in the way of selective focus that can be done outside of macro. In many way, however, it seems to satisfy some here. I'm not a fan, but there you go.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
Bill,

Nice 'stash...or is that a bat under your nose? lol....

Bob
 
When you are using an electronic viewfinder or LCD for a camera with a movie mode, is what you see on the camera's display a replay? In other words, is it a real time display?

For what it's worth, our local constabluary use Polaroid cameras at the crime scene.
 
kbg32 said:
"Younger people...have never had a viewfinder experience.", or rotary phone experience......

I misses those rotary phone, I used one in 1986, at our apartment building's security post. Can't recall any mental picture of having one at home, but I bet we had one before...

XAos said:
One heretical change I'd like to see come about, is dispensing with the flapping mirror but keeping the interchangable lenses for mid-grade cameras. Now EVERY camera can be a rangefinder. Bwa ha ha even while using K-mount or other mount lenses!!! Are you pondering what I'm pondering?

No seriously, the EVF is a fundamental technology shift that hasn't seen its full impact realized. And IMO it's as fundamental as TLR/SLR/RF/View, it's a category on equal with them in every way. Yes there are tradeoffs, just like a TLR has, or an SLR has. You are still seeing a preview with the aperture wide open - but you get that with your SLR & the TLR as well, and the RF doesn't even pretend to give it to you.

I know we'll likely never see an interchangeable lens EVF camera WITHOUT the LCD on the back, but... somehow I think it's a very logical animal. I'd let em keep the composite TV out if they want, it is useful once in a while in the field. If they can give me that camera with the ability to focus manually, and knobs or <gasp> rings for aperture & shutter. 22/16/11/8/5.6/4/2.8/Auto has been with us for many many years. Why bury it under a menu?

That Sony R-1 (so whatever it is called, that replace the F828) is as close as it gets, without the interchangeable lens.

Tried it once, the EVR still lag, and I don't like the manual foucs. Maybe a EVR with split-image or even forst ground glass effect in the future?

LOL...
 
During my recent vacation, I observed a majority of the other tourists using the LCD to frame their shots, and noticed several times that I was one of the few using the viewfinder on my digital (Canon 20d). Many folks were using small digital cameras about 1/2 inch / 13mm thick that had no viewfinder at all. I still prefer the viewfinder because in strong light the LCD screens are hard to see. Also, force of habit, since that is the way that I have always used cameras.

As an aside, got a lot of great shots with my Contax II loaded with Velvia 50.
 
The funny thing about LCD usage is the "digicam walk" as somebody dances backward in a weird way, trying to compose his shot. Then again, looking at a picture of HCB at work, he looks pretty weird, too, with that funny brick against his face. And then there's the waist-level finders ! Haha ! Aren't we a funny bunch ?


Peter.

PS: I love your new avatar, Bill.
 
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