Our Cameras and the Future.. Repair-wise

[DanOnRoute66]

I can't speak to how many parts of any given camera are available, of course. As far as service goes, I'm not worried about it. Mechanical cameras can be fixed (assuming you can find parts, if needed) by anyone who has the skill to repair a digital camera, I would think. And you can do it yourself as well. I know; after spending a sizeable amount of money getting a Nikon S2 overhauled in 2010, I got a repair manual and overhauled a second one all by myself. The second works as well as the one professionally repaired, which is to say, quite well.

 

[Vickko]

What annoys and concerns me now is that you may need the manufacturer's software to get a camera back to working condition.

For example, I understand that you need Leica's software to re-calibrate the meter on an M6, Everything else is mechanical. Back in the days of the M5, you could iterate with pot adjustments until everything was back to spec. No more with the M6 and newer cameras. Other than maybe cleaning the rangefinder or preview mechanism, I don't think there is anything a non-Leica tech can do on an M8 and end up with a working camera, because that tech likely won't have the Leica computer to interface with the camera.

The advent of electronics gave us incredible functionality, but also imposed exclusivity for repair.

Vick

.... there are an awful lot of custom tools, jigs, alignment devices etc. that can only be purchased from the manufacturer. Without these items servicing a camera becomes a lot more complicated.

 

[Vickko]

Yep. That's how I started.

And I find myself very leery about sending any of my cameras out. I've heard too many horror stories, even around the more famous repairers. I trust my own skills, and well if I screw up, I feel better taking the blame on myself.

On the other hand, there are a few tasks, like replacing shutter curtains, that I prefer to have someone who has had a lot of practise, to do.

And practise is the key. Some of the more mysterious and common defects really take experience to ferret out, and the repair manuals don't cover it. For instance, one infamous flaw is the "slow speed shutter doesn't fire until I release the shutter button".

....Vick

.... And you can do it yourself as well; I know, after spending a sizeable amount of money getting a Nikon S2 overhauled in 2010, I got a repair manual and overhauled a second one all by myself. The second works as well as the one professionally repaired, which is to say, quite well.

 

[oftheherd]

At my age I am not so worried. Plus I have backups for my two favorite cameras, my ST 901 and Press 23. I am most worried about the 901s. Hopefully, out of three, I can keep at least one going as long as I keep going.

 

[Gordon Moat]

I've been working on a camera design for a while, based upon a prototype I built. At least in the realm of mechanical parts, companies like Fastenal and others, gears and various moving connectors are not vastly complex to source. As others have stated, the specific electronic parts are more of an issue.

I have a vintage Longines watch that uses a movement they no longer manufacture. My watch guru was able to find a donor watch to get some gears, but the search took over a year, and the parts are used and not new-old-stock. This probably highlights a similar complexity to cameras, in that many were made from parts specific to a certain model.

I also have a Bronica RF645 which I use for some of my commercial photography. I'm more concerned about the electronic shutter in the lenses than I am about the body, but in the event that fails, my first step would be to get a replacement, then try to get it repaired.

We also need to be concerned with a lack of repair people, not due to complexity or lacks of skills, rather the simple economics of attracting individuals into the repair field. The same issue exists for watchmakers. These are niche professions. It may be that in the future, only a Leica would be valuable enough for someone to want to be a camera repairman, and then perhaps only at a high cost.

What I wish Tamron would do is release repair manuals to the public. I would be willing to pay to get one.

 

[btgc]

Metal parts can be made in reasonable cost in China, electronic component is out of questions

How's that? Camera electronics costs less or same than quality mechanics, I guess, and aren't rocket science either. Problem is how much they have to charge to have interest in understanding old circuit and either repairing or making new one. If there are few customers needing repair, bills should be high enough - I wonder how many would be ready to pay for such repairs.

 

[pvdhaar]

How's that? Camera electronics costs less or same than quality mechanics, I guess, and aren't rocket science either. Problem is how much they have to charge to have interest in understanding old circuit and either repairing or making new one. If there are few customers needing repair, bills should be high enough - I wonder how many would be ready to pay for such repairs.

Contrary to what you assume, camera electronics for for instance a Konica Hexar or a Bronica RF645 is rocket science. When parts run out, you're done. Some parts (especially the integrated circuits) have had years of engineering effort put into them. Even if the manufacturer would make the IC design data itself available (very unlikely), running a new batch of chips would set you back upwards of $100,000. The reason that electronics turn out cheaper for the end customer, is that they're produced in large volumes, spreading the manufacturing and development cost. Mechanics on the other hand can be lathed/milled on a one by one basis for a more reasonable price.

 

[sevo]

Even if the manufacturer would make the IC design data itself available (very unlikely), running a new batch of chips would set you back upwards of $100,000.

Worse: The process to create an IC is likely already obsoleted if the device is two years old - chip technologies change at a alarming speed. Another five years down the line there usually is not a single factory left in the world any more that could still make a working chip off that old design. What you'd need is something new of similar functionality - which may amount to a new design from scratch.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Good grief! Another 'Sky is Falling' thread.

Life is change. We are born, grow old, and die. Nothing lasts forever, especially electronic cameras. Or people.

Yes, it would be nice if people understood what 'sustainable' means, and if some relatively simple things (such as coffee makers) were built to last. Or, for that matter, watches. There were a couple of decades when I wore electronic watches, but now I've gone back to the Omega Seamaster 30 I was given in my 'teens. It isn't quite as accurate, and it needs cleaning every few years, but that's better than buying a new watch every few years.

But the current world picture is built on (unsustainable) growth, and besides, there are some genuine advances in design and manufacture, so newer sometimes is better. So while it's sad that a much-loved old camera is difficult or impossible to repair, it's hardly the end of the world.

Cheers,

R.

 

[ebolton]

I think to an extent, the advent of electronics has not made cameras or anything else less repairable; it has just increased the geekiness required of the repairer. I work with a guy who repairs electronic pinball machines on the side. He rarely has to replace proprietary chips. Usually he is replacing commodity components that have failed (caps, resistors, and fuses), and repairing or jumping circuit board traces. He does have to go to great lengths sometimes to get schematics for these machines, which are larger and simpler than cameras. Almost all the other Electrical Engineers I work with repair electronic devices for fun if not for profit. I've seen guys resurrect dead cell phones, DVD players, GPS units, and practically everything else. The future of camera repair is guys with electronics knowledge and oscilloscopes along with the little screwdrivers and lens spanners.

 

[Drago]

Just buy mechanical cameras. The only thing which can go one day and cannot be repairable is the meter and that's not that big of a problem. And as some mentioned these old cameras are firstly really well made and not so complicate - well most of them. About electronic cameras - every one will die someday and you can't do nothing about it, if it's not the latest techs, with still avaliable parts and someone to do it.

 

[sevo]

I think to an extent, the advent of electronics has not made cameras or anything else less repairable; it has just increased the geekiness required of the repairer. I work with a guy who repairs electronic pinball machines on the side. He rarely has to replace proprietary chips.

Pinball machines mostly preceded the age of significantly proprietary chips - even the late, electronic ones mostly use run-of-the-mill Z-80 or 6802 circuitry (and mostly for sound at that), so that they can be patched up with home computer/console parts. And even where they do use proprietary parts, there is generally enough space in them to stow a entire PC to emulate the functions of some dead component, if necessary.

Cameras have a much higher degree of integration, and few people will consider it acceptable if their "fixed" camera needs 300W grid power and trails a tower size PC on a finger-thick umbilical cable...

 

[Matus]

As an owner of Mamiya 6 I am a bit worried - I know that some repairs can not be made anymore. Should the camera break beyond the point of possible repair I would probably just sell the lenses and either get a Mamiya 7 (which is still being produced and will be supported for a while) or Bessa III or some completely mechanical camera like Rolleiflex.

It is simply a matter of fact that at some point most of outdated electronic cameras will get to point where a repair will not be possible. Sad but true.

Good part is that mostly only the camera body is heavily dependent on electronics - lenses usually not as much. So as long as another body can be bought, the lenses will keep their value.

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

Wouldn't it be great if some community colleges taught camera repair? Not that this would necessarily enable one to earn a living by itself, but as part of a larger electronics repair business it could be a lucrative specialty.

Anyone on this forum who has been getting more and more into camera repair? It'd be nice to encourage the next generation.

I'm finding myself drawn more and more to trying my hand at repairs and maintenance. The good news is that with the accessibility of information via the internet, and the availability, in some instances, of factory or third party repair documentation in electronic form, in some ways it has never been easier to get started. I think the main problem is having the time to research information and actually apply it to the cameras. It's the sort of thing that can easily take over all your spare time if you let it. The best thing is probably to start with basic, inexpensive cameras that do not involve much risk financially or emotionally if they're destroyed during the process of learning. Even complete cameras that are in need of servicing can be acquired very cheaply ex-ebay so little financial outlay is required. Perhaps the main consideration is the type of shutter one chooses to work with. I prefer to use leaf shutters personally as, having a preference for slow or medium speed films outright speed is not that important to me. Cameras with these often (but not always) tend to be less complex than an SLR or rangefinder with a focal plane shutter. So it will come as no surprise that most of the cameras I have worked on have featured these. But if you prefer focal plane shutters, bodies from the likes of Praktica or Zenit are cheap as chips with which to learn some of the basics of shutter blind replacement etc.

Regards,
Brett

 

[dct]

Give me an electric fire: I can dismantle it completely and I'm able to replace whatever might be wrong. Give me blow drier: The same. Now our problem is, the electro-mechanical cameras I like (Hexars, newer M-Leicas, Contax-Gs and many fixed lens RF as well as 120 format ones...) are already in electronics, not only electricity. That's where most of us stop fiddling around in DIY.
I'm well aware of the fact these nice photographic tools can get a sudden death. But as long there are parts (or spare bodies) around, I will do the required investment keeping my stuff alive, having no fear the whole time and do the best with it: shooting images. The only thing I believe and has to be true is my groving investment in LTM/M-lenses. As long I can use those pieces of glass on the next body, I really don't see the big issue.

 

[brian steinberger]

Just to update, I emailed Tamron USA and it seems they are still willing to service the camera. So I will send it to them and in the meantime purchase a second body.

BTW... what all mechanical MF rangefinders are there? All I can think of is the original Mamiya 6 and the Plaubel Makina. It's be nice if the new Fuji 670 was all mechanical.

 

[Calzone]

I would like to add that parts is only part of the equation.

The other two are training and the proper tools.

Obviously factory training is the best, but if you can read a service manual and have high mechanical skills you should be able to execute a repair.

The proper tools are a different story. In addition to the standard things like screw drivers, optical bench etc. there are an awful lot of custom tools, jigs, alignment devices etc. that can only be purchased from the manufacturer. Without these items servicing a camera becomes a lot more complicated.

I got rid of my Mamiya 6 because of my long-term concerns, but at the same time got other cameras I intend to keep over the decades ahead OVERHAULED by repair people that were factory trained.

I will stress that an overhaul is different than a CLA in that worn parts are replaced as part of the process and maintenance is taken a step further and to a higher degree/level.

I think Harry above has it right that the factory trained specialists are ideal to make your cameras last the longest. I have two more cameras to process and I'll be done. I'm also concerned that these factory trained people are of advancing age so I think it is wise to have these services performed now rather than later.

The next thing I can do is use all this gear regularly which will hopefully add to their longevity.

No gloom or doom here, but I am taking diligent measures to ensure my future enjoyment and wishing to live without compromise or limitation.

Cal

 

[Richard C]

I am with Brett on this one. Go onto eBay and do a search for 'spares and repair' in the Photography section to see what is available. Do a bit of research to find out which service manuals are available on the web. Have a look on the Classic Camera repair forum and see which cameras are being discussed there. Then, for one particular camera, get the service manual and buy up some faulty examples on eBay. It is probably best to start with something plentiful and basic. Spend some time familiarising yourself with them and hopefully you will be able to fix one of them. Once you have fixed one the others should be easier and take less time. Fairly soon you will be come an expert in that particular type of camera and be ready to tackle other makes.

 

[KoNickon]

BTW... what all mechanical MF rangefinders are there? All I can think of is the original Mamiya 6 and the Plaubel Makina. It's be nice if the new Fuji 670 was all mechanical.

Nothing made recently, but there are plenty. The old, all metal Fujica 690/670 models were all mechanical. Same for the Soviet Moskvas and Iskras, and non-metered Zeiss folders (Ikontas and Nettars). The Agfa Isolettes are another family of all mechanical MF folders. Some are scale focus but some models have rangefinders. Check out the certo6.com site to see a whole mess of MF mechanical folders, mainly German.

 

[Beemermark]

I sent my beloved Bronica RF645 to KEH for a CLA and received it back today with a note saying that some gear assemblies need to be replaced inside and that the parts are no longer available,....... RB67, something mecahnical that will always be able to be fixed.

1st) gear assemblies are mechanical. Electronics are extremely depended and reliable and rarely ever fail if they survive infancy. For years I've heard not to buy a Minolta CLE because you can't buy replacement electronic boards. However I yet to see a documented case where one did fail
2nd) Properly designed gears don't need replacement. I've seen 100 year old large format shutters that have gears worn to the point of accuracy suffers, but a relatively new camera like your Bronica is wore out!! Reminds me of the Fuji folding 645, bellows failed in a few short years. Meanwhile my 1930's Super Ikonta 645 (and 6x9) are still working perfectly.

Moral - don;t let a poor design turn you off. Mamiya has a very good reputation.