Pairing a Bessa R with Jupiter 8

[m.sids]

Greetings RFF,

I've been dabbling with some Russian rangefinders this year and am looking to graduate to something that actually has a light meter. I've narrowed down my search to a Bessa R due to the sub-$350 price point, TTL metering, and possible compatibility with my 1968 J8. I'm really trying to limit the number of Ukranian Ebay packages that I have to explain to my girlfriend, so its worth it for me to try and make a lens that I already have work.

From what I've gathered it looks like the M39 mount is compatible, but I may have to shim the lens more to make the elements sit the right difference away from the film. I've poked around a bit but still am not certain if this will be a good combination. Do you folks have any experience with that combination of Bessa R and Jupiter 8? Is there a definitive guide to shimming these lenses?

Thanks,
-Mike

 

[Swift1]

I've used my Bessa R with 2 different copies of Jupiter-8. I haven't tested for critical focusing wide open, but from the results I've got, the pair make a great combo.

 

[rfaspen]

Works fine. No shimming or adjustment necessary for my setup.

Bessa R is an amazing body for the money. You will be quite happy. Only LTM camera with modern build, hotshoe, built-in meter (a la M6TTL), hinged back, shutter speeds to 1/2000, framelines, and my favorite kind of rangefinder patch (hard edge, clear and easy to use). If you've been using FSU up to now, you will have your breath taken away with the R. J-8 works great on them. Any mis-match you read about on the internet is not enough to be noticed with a J-8. Use it first, then see if you think there's need for shimming (hint: you won't).

 

[m.sids]

Works fine. No shimming or adjustment necessary for my setup.

Bessa R is an amazing body for the money. You will be quite happy. Only LTM camera with modern build, hotshoe, built-in meter (a la M6TTL), hinged back, shutter speeds to 1/2000, framelines, and my favorite kind of rangefinder patch (hard edge, clear and easy to use). If you've been using FSU up to now, you will have your breath taken away with the R. J-8 works great on them. Any mis-match you read about on the internet is not enough to be noticed with a J-8. Use it first, then see if you think there's need for shimming (hint: you won't).

Thank you! I've done a ton of reading on the R and it looks like an amazing camera for the money. I'm glad that there are at least a few others who are already using this setup. What else should I know? Do you usually stick with the J8?

 

[m.sids]

Thank you! I'll pull the trigger on an R and give it a try as-is and shim if necessary.

What other lenses do you shoot on your R?

I've used my Bessa R with 2 different copies of Jupiter-8. I haven't tested for critical focusing wide open, but from the results I've got, the pair make a great combo.

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[Swift1]

Thank you! I'll pull the trigger on an R and give it a try as-is and shim if necessary.

What other lenses do you shoot on your R?

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I mostly leave my Voigtlander Color-Skopar 35/2.5 on my Bessa R, but have used the Jupiter-8 and my Industar-61 L/D, both with good results. The one LTM lens I have that won't work the Bessa R is my Jupiter-12 35/2.8.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

I had black and I had white J-8 on R. I didn't knew back then what they have to be shimmed. 🙂

Results are here.
Some of them are OOF, but it is not the lens fault. 🙂.

I also had SC 35 on R most of the time after I purchased this lens.

IIIf with TwinMate meter will cost around the same. To add 35mm lens to R it will costs 250$ at least. To add 35mm to Barnack it costs J-12 and external VF. I build my VF from Olympus XA viewfinder.

 

[retinax]

Mine doesn't focus correctly on the Canon 7 (which I prefer to the Bessa R, but then the meter doesn't matter much to me, I prefer a hand held one or estimate).
This http://pentax-manuals.com/repairs/j8service.pdf contains information how to shim it, but I can't open mine up, it's stuck...
If you're thinking about getting other lenses, a consideration is if they work with the Bessa: My J-12 didn't screw into the Bessa I had, but works on the Canon 7. I think I've read that Bessa an J-12 worked for some people though.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Even if J-12 will screw in (I had), it will block TTL metering.

 

[Steve M.]

Enjoy your Bessa R. They're the best bang for the buck in a modern LTM camera w/ a meter. I'm not sure where the rumor started on having to shim the J8 lenses for these cameras (pretty sure it was someone here though), but they have always worked perfectly on mine, and I've probably owned a half dozen Bessa R's w/ that lens. The Bessa R shutters can be a little noisy, but putting them in a half case solves that issue. If you tire of the camera digging into your back when hung on a shoulder strap, there's a nice accessory grip that takes care of that, but you can't use the grip w/ the half case.

 

[m.sids]

Enjoy your Bessa R. They're the best bang for the buck in a modern LTM camera w/ a meter. I'm not sure where the rumor started on having to shim the J8 lenses for these cameras (pretty sure it was someone here though), but they have always worked perfectly on mine, and I've probably owned a half dozen Bessa R's w/ that lens. The Bessa R shutters can be a little noisy, but putting them in a half case solves that issue. If you tire of the camera digging into your back when hung on a shoulder strap, there's a nice accessory grip that takes care of that, but you can't use the grip w/ the half case.

Thanks you for your input, Steve. Yes user Brian Sweeney here has some information about shimming J8s. He says that the FSU rangefinders have a different flange to focal plane distance and thus the lenses require adjustment when mounting to Leica-style M39 mounts. Some of his posts say it is as little as .1mm which made me wonder if I could just use ground glass on the focal plane and a loupe to adjust the wide open close focus of the rangefinder right-on knowing that I might sacrifice perfect sharpness at infinity. I've also read that if not adjusted that an improperly adjusted lens could either front focus or back focus.

Regardless of whether the lens has to be adjusted or not I think I'm definitely set on buying an R in M39 and if I have issues I can work from there.

Thanks again for your help!

 

[fish1991222]

I had been using the R with J-8 for almost half a year before I finally entered into Leica. As far as I know my R-J8 combo never had any problems with focus accuracy. To be honest this might be the best fit for a modern LTM mount rangefinder with a Zeiss copy Jupiter from more than half century ago. Results from them were quite satisfying especially when shoot bw films.

Anyway, don't worry, I bet the lens will fit well.

 

[santino]

I used a J8 on my M via adapter with great succes - without shimming. I think the J3 is rather critical...

 

[ForestCap]

I have the same combo and I have used the combo for many rolls. Good results.

I have had J8s that needed shimming, they did not even focus correctly on FSU bodies. All the J8s focus correctly on my FSU bodies focus correctly on my Bessa-R, so no shimming needed!

 

[Malcolm M]

The reason why FSU lenses might not focus properly on Leicas and Leica copies…
From the formula for those thin lenses of negligible cross section, so beloved of O Level physics examiners, 1/f=1/u+1/v (f= focal length, u & v lens to object and lens to image distances). It follows that a rangefinder can only be calibrated for one focal length. Now, whereas the Fed/Zorki cameras were based on the Leicas captured at Stalingrad, the lenses were copies of Zeiss designs from Jena in the Russian occupation zone. As I understand, Zeiss’s idea of what constituted a 5 cm standard lens differed slightly from Leica’s (I don’t know the exact figures) so the rangefinders are calibrated differently.
How much this variation actually matters, I’m not sure. I don’t see why shimming should be necessary- if FSU bodies have the same lens flange to film plane distance as Leicas, then everything should be correct at infinity focus. Shimming can only correct focus at one point. The only complete cure is to reprofile the cam on the lens (vastly more trouble than it can possibly be worth).

 

[retinax]

The reason why FSU lenses might not focus properly on Leicas and Leica copies…
From the formula for those thin lenses of negligible cross section, so beloved of O Level physics examiners, 1/f=1/u+1/v (f= focal length, u & v lens to object and lens to image distances). It follows that a rangefinder can only be calibrated for one focal length. Now, whereas the Fed/Zorki cameras were based on the Leicas captured at Stalingrad, the lenses were copies of Zeiss designs from Jena in the Russian occupation zone. As I understand, Zeiss’s idea of what constituted a 5 cm standard lens differed slightly from Leica’s (I don’t know the exact figures) so the rangefinders are calibrated differently.
How much this variation actually matters, I’m not sure. I don’t see why shimming should be necessary- if FSU bodies have the same lens flange to film plane distance as Leicas, then everything should be correct at infinity focus. Shimming can only correct focus at one point. The only complete cure is to reprofile the cam on the lens (vastly more trouble than it can possibly be worth).

Check out the manual I've linked above - shims can be added or removed between groups to change the FL slightly.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

It is all for formula lovers and test chart talks. If J-3 or J-8 has to be shimmed for Leica and for photography, all it needs is regular shimming rings and get correct focus at one meter.
The rest is done by DOF. I have done all of my lenss like this. And many of them raised the question why do I keep Summicron 🙂.

 

[retinax]

Inspired by this tread, I just tried again and was able to open mine up. Added a shim and it looks pretty good now on ground glass, as far as I can see with the insufficient loupe I have. New lube (not in the helices yet) makes it feel a lot better.

But after shimming, the aperture ring needs to be set in a new position. Have you found it necessary to tap new holes for the screws the hold the aperture ring or just gently tightened them?

 

[m.sids]

Inspired by this tread, I just tried again and was able to open mine up. Added a shim and it looks pretty good now on ground glass, as far as I can see with the insufficient loupe I have. New lube (not in the helices yet) makes it feel a lot better.

But after shimming, the aperture ring needs to be set in a new position. Have you found it necessary to tap new holes for the screws the hold the aperture ring or just gently tightened them?

That's great! I haven't cracked mine open yet but I assume the aperture comment is in regards to the ring not indexing with the dot?

What did you use to shim and how much thickness did you have to add? I've heard that some people just use paper and others make shims out of modified C clips.

 

[retinax]

That's great! I haven't cracked mine open yet but I assume the aperture comment is in regards to the ring not indexing with the dot?

What did you use to shim and how much thickness did you have to add? I've heard that some people just use paper and others make shims out of modified C clips.

Yes, the marks on the ring don't index with the line any more in the old position.


I first adjusted with the retainer ring that holds the aperture ring(the one hidden under the ring with the aperture marks). But adjusting with that ring makes the aperture ring wobbly. So I then noted how much adjustment had been necessary, by how much that retaining ring had to be rotated (same rotation you can see on the front lettering after reassembly), and in shim thickness directly as well, by just squeezing the shim material between aperture ring and retaining ring. The sheet metal thingy from a floppy disk was the right thickness for mine, appears to be aluminum and can be cut with normal scissors. Although it's too small for an actual ring, cutting a spiral and bending it a bit wider works. Hope this was clear, if not I'm happy to answer more questions.