djon
Well-known
http://www.dpreview.com/gallery/?gallery=panasoniclx1_preview/
16X9 ratio, 8MP
The future. Splice a few frames...
16X9 ratio, 8MP
The future. Splice a few frames...
Pansonic 16X9 28mm digi
- Thread starter djon
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GeneW
Veteran
One to keep an eye on -- though it's not the only digicam that offers 28mm equiv. What bothers me about this one is the lack of an optical VF. Perhaps a later model will offer that.
Gene
Gene
djon
Well-known
It's not the 28mm that's interesting, it's the panoramic aspect ratio, the larger chip, and the Leica lens . This is one of the new digi Leicas.
einolu
Well-known
what is a bit weak is that the 28mm is only in its 16:9 mode, so if you want to take a 3:2 shot or something your back in 35mm range. Its also a bit expensive, and supposedly produces a noisy image (I have been following it on DPReview, they even have some pre production shots with it). Besides that its really what I have been looking for in a digicam and might pick it up when it comes out in september.
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
The idea is good; I have to mention though, that in that tiny little sensor i don't see (besides marketing) the reason for 8 megapixels. On the few of the example images, that are not the low iso80 and bright sunshine, the noise is already terribly high. WOuld have been a better bet with 5mp, imo (it can't compete with xpan anyway). Look at the horsie's belly e.g., on pic no. 9 - iso400 is useless even on the normal format fitting on the screen, and iso200 (second image, check the shopcase window) looks funky already.
eric
[was]: emaquiling
I think it is the start of P&S digi makers to start making the familiar 3:2 ratio. I hate resizing digi pix to give it that "golden ratio" look to it. I wouldn't be surprisef by next year, the digi SLR's have a similar 35mm ratio (or is it out already? I don't own a digi slr)
GeneW
Veteran
I understood that, but the aspect ratio doesn't really turn my crank. I wouldn't read too much into its having a Leica branded lens. With digicams, Leica lenses offer no unique advantages over, say, Canon lenses. I own a Panasonic FZ-20 with Leica lens and it's nice, but no better than my other digicams.djon said:
Gene
einolu
Well-known
Supposedly panasonic is going to fix that in the actual production model. To be fair though, I have yet to hear of a digital point and shoot that has acceptable noise at iso 400.
Pherdinand said:
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
I think it is very very very cool. I certainly will keep my eye on it. If they do this right, I think it will be a solution to the yet to be unleashed wide-angle fan market. I'm not going to buy the 10-22 lens for my Canon 20D, trust me; I'm happy with film still, so I use my 17-40 on my Elan.
I'm sure there will be many naysayers. I wonder if it's an ex-Apple employee who convinced them to market this camera.
I'm sure there will be many naysayers. I wonder if it's an ex-Apple employee who convinced them to market this camera.
einolu
Well-known
check out the panasonic japan site for some cool information on it. the manual controls seem fairly straight forward, and the way manual focus works looks like its not too bad either. I cant find the link now but they have some interactive demos there. I just wish they could add a few jogdials, since they have a nice analog feel to them.
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
It certainly is a step forward, i am sorry if i sounded as a nay-sayer! The controls and more manual-feel/look of it is indeed promising.
I just feel that the noise is still more than I would accept. And even a digital guru and noise ninja pro friend of mine whined about that noise level in the examples.
By the way, isn't the aspect ratio trick done by simple cropping in the camera? Coz if it is, then i also don't get excited by the 16:9 ratio. And it's not 8mp anymore.
But let's hope for the best🙂
I just feel that the noise is still more than I would accept. And even a digital guru and noise ninja pro friend of mine whined about that noise level in the examples.
By the way, isn't the aspect ratio trick done by simple cropping in the camera? Coz if it is, then i also don't get excited by the 16:9 ratio. And it's not 8mp anymore.
But let's hope for the best🙂
einolu
Well-known
no, the CCD is actually 16:9. if you switch back to 4:3 then your cropping.
djon
Well-known
Nay-sayer: the chip itself is oversized, larger than on Canon 20D or Nikon D70 (both of which will be toast in a year due to the 8MP Pansonic/Leitz DSLR). The idea of interchangable lenses in prosumer cameras like 20D and D70 is mere marketing.
Noise is easily dealt with in post-processing. It's a reviewer's preoccupation, at worst simply a feature, no more a problem than grain in silver film.
This is obviously not the ultimate, but it's one of the reasons the majority of today's dedicated film shooters will drift digitally within a year or two at most.
Noise is easily dealt with in post-processing. It's a reviewer's preoccupation, at worst simply a feature, no more a problem than grain in silver film.
This is obviously not the ultimate, but it's one of the reasons the majority of today's dedicated film shooters will drift digitally within a year or two at most.
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
Okay, this is an intervention. We've got to get over this "thing" that seems to be developing about these new Panasonics. They're very nice prosumer digicams (as are several others with similar specs) but they're not life-changing paradigm shifts.
First, even the new image-stabilization model isn't a true DSLR -- it's just an "SLR-like" electronic-viewfinder camera, like many others. Electronic viewfinders are okay, and a lot of people are very satisfied with them -- but a 230,000-pixel EVF (which is what the Panasonic has) isn't going to provide nearly as detailed a view as a true optical DSLR or a true optical-finder RF camera.
That alone is one good reason why the Panasonic isn't going to drive the Canon 20D and Nikon D70 off the market -- some people really do need an optical viewfinder, either through-lens, as on a DSLR, separate, as on some other digicams and, in a more sophisticated form, in the Epson R-D 1.
Another reason is that some people really need interchangeable lenses, too. The Panasonic's 35-420mm equivalent is impressive, but a lot of us need to shoot wider than 35mm, and/or faster than f/2.8 (the Pana's maximum aperture at wide position; at tele position, it slows down to f/3.7.) True, anti-shake (as built into the Pana) partially compensates for slow maximum apertures by allowing you to shoot at slower shutter speeds without worrying about camera movement, but it doesn't do anything to stop subject movement; sports and action shooters still are going to need their f/2.8 teles and f/2 or f/1.4 shorter lenses.
Noise is another issue for some people: true, it can be masked in post-processing, but there's no way to put back the image detail that was obliterated by the noise in the first place, so it's better to have a lower-noise image to begin with. Of course, sensor size isn't an infallible predictor of noise level, but just for the record, the Panasonic's sensor is much smaller than that on a typical DSLR -- 5.32 x 7.18 mm, vs., say, the 15.6 x 23.7mm "APS-C"-size sensor used in the Nikon D70 and the R-D 1.
So while these new Panasonics certainly sound like great choices for anyone who's looking for an EVF digital camera, I certainly don't think they're going to be driving other camera categories off the market and onto the eBay bargain bin -- any more than the similarly-featured Sony and Konica-Minolta prosumer cameras have done already.
In fact, one of the digital-camera news sites was saying last week that according to a recent industry survey, DSLRs are by far the fastest-growing digital category, and you have to figure that many of those buyers are coming from fixed-lens EVF cameras.
Personally, I'm glad that I can ignore all those trends, since I only like to use rangefinder cameras!
First, even the new image-stabilization model isn't a true DSLR -- it's just an "SLR-like" electronic-viewfinder camera, like many others. Electronic viewfinders are okay, and a lot of people are very satisfied with them -- but a 230,000-pixel EVF (which is what the Panasonic has) isn't going to provide nearly as detailed a view as a true optical DSLR or a true optical-finder RF camera.
That alone is one good reason why the Panasonic isn't going to drive the Canon 20D and Nikon D70 off the market -- some people really do need an optical viewfinder, either through-lens, as on a DSLR, separate, as on some other digicams and, in a more sophisticated form, in the Epson R-D 1.
Another reason is that some people really need interchangeable lenses, too. The Panasonic's 35-420mm equivalent is impressive, but a lot of us need to shoot wider than 35mm, and/or faster than f/2.8 (the Pana's maximum aperture at wide position; at tele position, it slows down to f/3.7.) True, anti-shake (as built into the Pana) partially compensates for slow maximum apertures by allowing you to shoot at slower shutter speeds without worrying about camera movement, but it doesn't do anything to stop subject movement; sports and action shooters still are going to need their f/2.8 teles and f/2 or f/1.4 shorter lenses.
[I'm even enough of a jerk to question whether the fact that Panasonic paid to be able to engrave "Leica" on their lens makes it a "Leica DSLR," any more than the fact that Sony likewise licenses the Carl Zeiss name for some of their prosumer cameras makes them "Zeiss DSLRs." But hey, as long as the lens is good, who cares? I'm not questioning the Panasonic lens's quality, only its flexibility.]
Noise is another issue for some people: true, it can be masked in post-processing, but there's no way to put back the image detail that was obliterated by the noise in the first place, so it's better to have a lower-noise image to begin with. Of course, sensor size isn't an infallible predictor of noise level, but just for the record, the Panasonic's sensor is much smaller than that on a typical DSLR -- 5.32 x 7.18 mm, vs., say, the 15.6 x 23.7mm "APS-C"-size sensor used in the Nikon D70 and the R-D 1.
So while these new Panasonics certainly sound like great choices for anyone who's looking for an EVF digital camera, I certainly don't think they're going to be driving other camera categories off the market and onto the eBay bargain bin -- any more than the similarly-featured Sony and Konica-Minolta prosumer cameras have done already.
In fact, one of the digital-camera news sites was saying last week that according to a recent industry survey, DSLRs are by far the fastest-growing digital category, and you have to figure that many of those buyers are coming from fixed-lens EVF cameras.
Personally, I'm glad that I can ignore all those trends, since I only like to use rangefinder cameras!
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
Excuse me...i hope you are right Djon, and I am sure you have more digital postprocessing experience than me, but I still think that THAT noise level at iso400 is not something to be "easily" deal with in post-processing.
I am open for an example, like, feel free to postprocess the test image i talk about, and send it to me so I can see what you mean.
cheers
I am open for an example, like, feel free to postprocess the test image i talk about, and send it to me so I can see what you mean.
cheers
skimmel
Established
Just to make sure I'm understanding this new camera: the 16:9 ratio gives you a 1.77 length to height ratio versus the 2.71 ratio of the XPan, correct? Also, the 45mm xpan is like a 24 mm wide angle, correct?
So, is the panasonic really a "semi-panoramic"? (I mean these are real questions, not a slight on the panasonic, which I find to be a very interesting and enticing camera.)
So, is the panasonic really a "semi-panoramic"? (I mean these are real questions, not a slight on the panasonic, which I find to be a very interesting and enticing camera.)
djon
Well-known
Intervention smintervention 🙄
Digital tech is in its infancy and its growing incredibly fast.
It's true that D70 and 20D, advanced amateur DSLRs, are better than current digital viewfinders...but they're nowhere near as good as film SLRs have been since the first Exaktas, in the Fifties.
Of course some people want wider lenses than 35 equivalent. I do. The beautiful thing about the new image stabalized Pansonics is that the two of them together give you 28-420 ...in a two-camera package that's MUCH smaller than one D70/20D two-lens kit. Not to mention FAR cheaper...with what will undoubtedly be better than Canon/Nikon kit lenses.
Any digital camera is easily a panoramic camera via Photoshop, as we all know. Using only two frames the new Panasonic is far wider than an Xpan. It wouldn't be able to produce the beautiful Xpan family image that we see on the splash page of this site, but that capability will be here soon, don't you think? 😎
IF one is printing murals, film and Xpan may still have the edge over mere 16MP (two Pansonic images, merged). But in a year or two, when the new prosumer cameras are 22MP, the story may be different.
Or do you doubt that we'll see higher resolution than 8mp ? A bumblebee can't fly, right?
I think the poor-mans-DSLR concepts are dead in 2006. It'll be a race to Ebay. 😛
Digital tech is in its infancy and its growing incredibly fast.
It's true that D70 and 20D, advanced amateur DSLRs, are better than current digital viewfinders...but they're nowhere near as good as film SLRs have been since the first Exaktas, in the Fifties.
Of course some people want wider lenses than 35 equivalent. I do. The beautiful thing about the new image stabalized Pansonics is that the two of them together give you 28-420 ...in a two-camera package that's MUCH smaller than one D70/20D two-lens kit. Not to mention FAR cheaper...with what will undoubtedly be better than Canon/Nikon kit lenses.
Any digital camera is easily a panoramic camera via Photoshop, as we all know. Using only two frames the new Panasonic is far wider than an Xpan. It wouldn't be able to produce the beautiful Xpan family image that we see on the splash page of this site, but that capability will be here soon, don't you think? 😎
IF one is printing murals, film and Xpan may still have the edge over mere 16MP (two Pansonic images, merged). But in a year or two, when the new prosumer cameras are 22MP, the story may be different.
Or do you doubt that we'll see higher resolution than 8mp ? A bumblebee can't fly, right?
I think the poor-mans-DSLR concepts are dead in 2006. It'll be a race to Ebay. 😛
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K
Kin Lau
Guest
GeneW said:
Wouldn't it be funny to see an aux viewfinder on a digicam. Many of us RF users are already used to it. I was actually thinking of using my turret finder with my 350D the next time I try to shoot fireworks.
K
Kin Lau
Guest
For those interested in iso400+ in a digicam, take a look at the Fujifilm F10 http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujifilmf10zoom . Just an FYI.
einolu
Well-known
Those swirly things you see are the digital noise reduction. Its good for a 4x6 pring though, since you dont need to do any post processing.
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