Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
My fault. I’ll try it again. The second type of haze I had and which is reported at RFF is then haze is inside. Maybe it isn't haze after al, but glue separation.
It just looks like haze. It was impossible to tell by pictures on eBay.
Seller didn’t took correct picture. Once it arrived, it was visible as the haze.
I took lens apart and with x20 magnifying glass it appears to be not on external surface of the element, but inside.
peterm1
Veteran
Yes it is a known thing. But not all old Canon lenses have it. I have experienced it too with some Canon RF lenses. It may also be partly related to the fact that many such lenses are available on eBay from Japanese sources and parts of Japan have long, hot, very humid summers and not all lenses are stored well. Humidity not only promotes fungus, it seems to promote haze too as the aerial borne moisture acts with he aerosol particles from lubricant (which seems to be the ultimate source of the problem) to cause the haze and if bad enough, the etching. I have read somewhere that the old traditional lube used back in the day had a biological source and was made from the oil (actually a kind of liquid wax) from sperm whales. I believe it has a similar composition to jojoba oil which is plant based. If this is what was used by Canon (and the consensus seems to be it was), being a fatty acid it seems that it might be its weak acidic nature that can cause the hazing issue when it is dispersed in aerosol form and dissolved in air borne H20 although the wiki entry on it says it was used widely as a lubricant because it did not corrode metals. The same wiki entry on sperm oil says it also has phosphorus and sulfur compounds in it, neither of which sound to me necessarily to be good things to bring into contact with lens coatings (or optical glass for that matter).
Not all hazed lenses are necessarily etched however. It is worth trying to clean them as usually at least some haze will come off especially it attention is paid to it early. But many times I have found that not all do so. I have worked on a couple of lenses with this problem but have not gone to distance undertaken by the OP. However I did buy some ultra fine polishing powder from a jewellery supplier (it was not cerium oxide however) and lightly polished the haze. But I was not confident of my ability to polish it thoroughly to the point of removing any surface as I was worried about changing the spherical curve or creating an astigmatism etc. On one lens the haze is still there though slightly diminished.
It may be unfair to call this Canon haze however as it can afflict other lenses. I have an early M mount Leitz Summaron 35mm f3.5 which has a touch of it. I paid a technician to CLA it but he was unable to completely remove the haze. Never the less it works well enough and I am fairly happy with it. Leitz is another firm that is known to have used sperm whale oil in its helical assemblies. Another Canon lens that is renowned for hazing regularly is the 50mm f1.2 in LTM. This specific lens needs to be pulled apart regularly and the optical surfaces cleaned. Fortunately it is an extremely simple lens to strip and cleanse with all elements being pretty accessible. One poster on another thread says he got so good at it he could do the CLA and reassembly in 10 minutes. Presumably if left long enough this one might etch too.
Mackinaw
Think Different
I agree, finding haze on a vintage camera lens isn't unusual. The Nikkor 50/2 that came with my Nikon M was so cloudy you couldn't see through it. Ditto for a 75mm Zuiko that was on a Mamiya 6 folder I once owned. Luckily, both cleaned up fairly easy.
Jim B.
peterm1
Veteran
I have considered though not yet tried using this stuff to polish any resistant haze out - it's called Nevr Dull and is readily found in Australia in auto parts stores and hardware stores. The tin contains cotton wadding impregnated with something like Brasso, which itself is a liquid polishing compound which seems to be so mild as an abrasive that any abrasive character it may have is indiscernible to touch (not however, sure if either Brasso or Nevr Dull is available in Europe or USA) . It successfully polishes almost anything I have thrown at it though I am not sure how the liquid carrier would react with lens coatings as it seems to be some kind of volatile.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
NevrDull is for polishing metal, not glass. It is extraordinarily flammable since the petroleum distillate that keeps the chemical polishing compound in suspension is basically kerosene. It will probably take coating off but there is ZERO abrasive in NevrDull or Brasso. What you need for glass is cerium oxide. It is available pre-mixed in various sizes through all sorts of online retailers, including the one that is named after the rain forest in South America that is on fire right now. I got a 3oz little squeeze vial of premixed compound for $8 USD and it may be the last cerium oxide I'll buy since a little goes an extremely long way. There is no need to be using volatile compounds made for polishing chrome and brass. But if you want to rub that glass with it until your fingerprints come off, more power to you.
Phil Forrest
Phil Forrest
DanskDynamit
Well-known
thanks for the answers, I meant that I just think that haze attacks all lenses not only old Canon ltm ones if they are not cared.
Fred2
Member
Thanks for all the good words and suggestions!
Personally I would discourage everyone to use any magic household agents, you don't know all the ingredients of. As pointed out here you may have good results but it can also just make things worse. I'd rather stick to what is known to not be harmful to either glass or coatings instead. Keep in mind, that optical glasses may be a lot less durable than the glass you use for everyday items!
If it's just about cleaning a lens surface, hard agents aren't at all necessary in my opinion. I just use water and a mild dishwasher soap. I make the lens wet, and use my (clean) fingertip to gently rub the soap on the lens. Then I rinse, dry the lens with papertowel and blow the dust off with a blower. Sometimes I use a (dry) brush or a microfiber cloth to get rid of sticky dust. That's it. I never needed to use anything more extreme for cleaning and it always worked. In my original post I described polishing a lens that was physically etched on one surface. This is not to be confused with cleaning.
Having that said, I kind of get the amonia/chloride thing, thought. It should basically just dissolve anything organic and should leave glass and coatings intact.
Personally I would discourage everyone to use any magic household agents, you don't know all the ingredients of. As pointed out here you may have good results but it can also just make things worse. I'd rather stick to what is known to not be harmful to either glass or coatings instead. Keep in mind, that optical glasses may be a lot less durable than the glass you use for everyday items!
If it's just about cleaning a lens surface, hard agents aren't at all necessary in my opinion. I just use water and a mild dishwasher soap. I make the lens wet, and use my (clean) fingertip to gently rub the soap on the lens. Then I rinse, dry the lens with papertowel and blow the dust off with a blower. Sometimes I use a (dry) brush or a microfiber cloth to get rid of sticky dust. That's it. I never needed to use anything more extreme for cleaning and it always worked. In my original post I described polishing a lens that was physically etched on one surface. This is not to be confused with cleaning.
Having that said, I kind of get the amonia/chloride thing, thought. It should basically just dissolve anything organic and should leave glass and coatings intact.
Fred2
Member
Oh, I didn't know that.
If its glue separation it's still repairable. You can use heat (hot water) to separate cemented lenses and recement them afterwards, as far as I know, but I never did it and I don't have a good tutorial at hands, right now.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
Yes, like boiling for four hours. I haven't find clear enough info on the glue, yet.
Maybe Canadian balsam is still available.
Maybe Canadian balsam is still available.
Fred2
Member
Thanks for all your competent infos! I will keep a close eye on my lens and as soon as I see it fogging up again I will completely remove all the old grease and replacing it with something proper...
About being confident to not change the spherical curve or creating an astigmatism: I think it is important to make a good lap that fits nicely on the lens surface. I used wax, that I pressed onto the lens, after warming it up. usually you use pitch for that, but wax did just fine for me. I saw a tutorial on how to polish lenses with a regular drill pad and rejected this approach for the exact same reason...
Fred2
Member
Great to see more on this! I hope yours will turn out nice!
Fred2
Member
Well yeah, the fog came back... unbelievable...
So yesterday I cleaned the aperture with lighter fluid and regreased it afterwards. I used a silicone based oil in very small quantities. The aperture itself seems to not necessarily need lubrication, but I didn't want to risk corrosion...
I really hope it's the damn lubricant...
Oh, and please feel free to comment on the choice for the new lubricant, because I just used it out of the blue thinking: "the less organic the better" but I really have no idea what so ever...
All the best, Fred
Peter Jennings
Well-known
I never lubricate aperture blades or the assembly. These moving parts usually work best when clean and dry. The only part of a lens that needs lube is the focus helical and the aperture adjustment ring.
peterm1
Veteran
Agree. The aperture blades should not be lubricated unless with a tiny bit of dry graphite powder administered by a fine painters brush. And even then its usually not needed or advisable - graphite might end up on lens element faces.
Fred2
Member
Thanks a lot guys. I clean the stuff out, if I ever need to open the lens again. As long as it's not doing any harm, I'll keep it there, since it's not hurting, really.
Good news is, that in contrast to last time, I can't see any sign of fogging, yet. But let's give it some of time...
Good news is, that in contrast to last time, I can't see any sign of fogging, yet. But let's give it some of time...
Lightshow
Member
Microscope slides can use a liquid form. I don't know if the concentration of balsam is high enough.
https://www.surplusshed.com/pages/item/M3386.html
I bought a bag of raw balsam from surplus shed
https://www.surplusshed.com/pages/item/B1077A.html
I have yet to attempt a separation repair, a Topcor 5.8cm/1.8 from my dad requires that fix, once I find a smaller supply of Xylene than the 4 liter can at my Home Depot, I will be giving it a try.
http://skgrimes.com/library/old-news/old-lenses-can-be-restored-by-re-cementing
http://forum.mflenses.com/re-cementing-doublet-elements-with-canadian-balsam-t34467.html
Scarbrog
Newbie
Great read
Great read
Thanks for posting Fred , i have a old jupiter 8 that was destined for the bin that i can use for practice
Regards
Graham.......
Great read
Thanks for posting Fred , i have a old jupiter 8 that was destined for the bin that i can use for practice
Regards
Graham.......