Wouter
Well-known
I have a situation here for which I need the advice of this community. I sold a valuable camera recently through the classifieds section on this forum, was paid through paypal and shipped it with EMS. What happened is that the buyer, claiming insufficient information from the tracking system, filed a claim with PP and my money is being held on reserve. This 2 days after shipment.
I understand that people want to feel protected when doing business with strangers. But I also feel that, once this buyer has opened the hypothesis of a possible scam, I have to think along this hypothesis as well. In the worst case, a buyer could build up a claim of 'not having received the object' and receive his/her money back from paypal. I remember such cases have been spoken of on this forum.
So, the question is: what can I do to protect myself from a hypothetical scam ? Which are the steps that I can take with paypal ? Can they follow the evolution of the case ?
Thanks a lot, again.
I understand that people want to feel protected when doing business with strangers. But I also feel that, once this buyer has opened the hypothesis of a possible scam, I have to think along this hypothesis as well. In the worst case, a buyer could build up a claim of 'not having received the object' and receive his/her money back from paypal. I remember such cases have been spoken of on this forum.
So, the question is: what can I do to protect myself from a hypothetical scam ? Which are the steps that I can take with paypal ? Can they follow the evolution of the case ?
Thanks a lot, again.
whatever
Established
Shipping
Shipping
The bottom - line is if you did not insure the camera or at very least require a signature for delivery you could loose your money. If you cannot prove to PP the buyer did receive the camera they will not pay. Never ever ship anything over $100 without insurance.
A more optimistic view is the buyer is concerned he cannot trace his investment and is just alerting PP you may be pulling a scam. I know I would be worried if I just paid for a item and could not trace the shipment.
I’d give it a week because of the holiday shipping rush and than start contacting the shipper for confirmation. Bill
Shipping
The bottom - line is if you did not insure the camera or at very least require a signature for delivery you could loose your money. If you cannot prove to PP the buyer did receive the camera they will not pay. Never ever ship anything over $100 without insurance.
A more optimistic view is the buyer is concerned he cannot trace his investment and is just alerting PP you may be pulling a scam. I know I would be worried if I just paid for a item and could not trace the shipment.
I’d give it a week because of the holiday shipping rush and than start contacting the shipper for confirmation. Bill
antiquark
Derek Ross
This might be relevant to your question:
https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?...tent_ID=security/seller_protection_learn_more
https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?...tent_ID=security/seller_protection_learn_more
Frontman
Well-known
If the camera was shipped through EMS a signature will be required before delivery can be completed. I specify in my item descriptions that I will not be responsible for shipping delays.
Another thing is that EMS' tracking system often does not work when you try to access it from EMS' official website. There are a couple of third party tracking services which do work, they will be on the list if you do an Internet search for EMS tracking.
In other cases, I have had buyers complain that they haven't received an item which I have shipped to them. The problem is almost alway due to their not being home when delivery was attempted, and the post office failed to leave an attempted delivery notice.
I never withdraw paypal funds for an item from my paypal account until the item is received by the buyer and feedback is left for me, or the 7 day inspection period has expired. This allows me to make a speedy refund, if one is necessary.
Another thing is that EMS' tracking system often does not work when you try to access it from EMS' official website. There are a couple of third party tracking services which do work, they will be on the list if you do an Internet search for EMS tracking.
In other cases, I have had buyers complain that they haven't received an item which I have shipped to them. The problem is almost alway due to their not being home when delivery was attempted, and the post office failed to leave an attempted delivery notice.
I never withdraw paypal funds for an item from my paypal account until the item is received by the buyer and feedback is left for me, or the 7 day inspection period has expired. This allows me to make a speedy refund, if one is necessary.
Wouter
Well-known
So this is a continuing story ...
Although it has become clear in the meantime, through the tracking system, that the parcel is on its way to the US, though severely delayed both here in Brazil as well as there, the buyer has now upgraded the issue to a claim. I already have been obliged to devolve 1050 dollars to PP, whilst the dispute is being settled by PP. The parcel is still on its way to US Customs ..
So far for confidence and the value for gentlemen's agreement .. In the worst case I end up without camera and money ..
Although it has become clear in the meantime, through the tracking system, that the parcel is on its way to the US, though severely delayed both here in Brazil as well as there, the buyer has now upgraded the issue to a claim. I already have been obliged to devolve 1050 dollars to PP, whilst the dispute is being settled by PP. The parcel is still on its way to US Customs ..
So far for confidence and the value for gentlemen's agreement .. In the worst case I end up without camera and money ..
pvg
Member
Not a scam
Not a scam
Wouter: This is not a scam. I have paid for the camera, but the camera is in limbo at customs or somewhere else. The fact is that you do not have the camera and I do not have the money! I advice that we take this off line and we resolve it with paypal.
Not a scam
Wouter: This is not a scam. I have paid for the camera, but the camera is in limbo at customs or somewhere else. The fact is that you do not have the camera and I do not have the money! I advice that we take this off line and we resolve it with paypal.
pvg
Member
follow-up
follow-up
and just to be clear, do not worry. I am honest, not less than you. Furthermore, I do not mean to still your money and keep the camera or whatever your fantasy maybe. Anyhow, we can arrange responses to different outcomes and reach fair solutions but let's do it under the paypal umbrella.
follow-up
and just to be clear, do not worry. I am honest, not less than you. Furthermore, I do not mean to still your money and keep the camera or whatever your fantasy maybe. Anyhow, we can arrange responses to different outcomes and reach fair solutions but let's do it under the paypal umbrella.
dacookieman
Cookie Monster
What I have been advised by the local post office when sending out items to the US is that of late, there is strict US Customs inspections for any goods entering the US. Therefore they WILL be delays.
I asked the post office, "how long will it take for my item to pass US Customs then?" The lady replied, "As long as it takes for them to carry out their inspection."
I asked the post office, "how long will it take for my item to pass US Customs then?" The lady replied, "As long as it takes for them to carry out their inspection."
Wouter
Well-known
Pvg, I have not identified you in this thread, not would I ever do that. Just as you are making use of the Paypal system to protect yourself - whereas the reasons for the delay are beyond my governance - I have the right to get information in this community to explore some hipotheses, without actually accusing you of anything because I don't have a basis for that. If I had any proof that I was being scammed, I would nail that person to the cross, even if only virtually. I simply think you overreacted twice: first when you made it an issue with PP with the object only a few days on its way, second when you upgraded it to a claim, when the situation didn't evolve fast enough for your liking. You could first simply have checked the references I gave you and calmed down a bit. I find it unpleasant to be treated with basic mistrust, when there is little reason for this.
Wouter
Well-known
Object is now in the care of US Customs, according to the tracking system.
pvg
Member
resolution
resolution
I have closed the paypal case as new shipping information became available today. If they camera arrives to its destination, it will all be good (shipped on Nov 20!). You have implied unethical behavior on my part here and it is not the place where I will discuss any of the additional nuances in this case. Actually, we have both distrusted excessively each other. As I said, this type of issues are better to be ventilated off line. PVG
resolution
I have closed the paypal case as new shipping information became available today. If they camera arrives to its destination, it will all be good (shipped on Nov 20!). You have implied unethical behavior on my part here and it is not the place where I will discuss any of the additional nuances in this case. Actually, we have both distrusted excessively each other. As I said, this type of issues are better to be ventilated off line. PVG
Wouter
Well-known
I have not implied unethical behaviour on your part - I have stated that you overreacted by presuming that it was possible you were being scammed when you didn't have confirmation pointing to this, apart from my suggestion that you pay by 'gift' to save me 50 dollars. Once you started contemplating the possibility of a scam, you forced me rethink my position and reflect on a similar possibility. I brought the issue into this community to verify similar occurences and see how to behave within them, but I took care not to identify you. Now, I hope the camera arrives soon and in good health. Please give me a return when that happens.
pvg
Member
At the end, camera is defective
At the end, camera is defective
Hi. the camera arrived, but with a cloudy viewfinder. Sherry Krauter inspected it and there is a separation that requires replacement. Cost of repair: $300! Seller promised to address; will post resolution. Thanks for the comments.
At the end, camera is defective
Hi. the camera arrived, but with a cloudy viewfinder. Sherry Krauter inspected it and there is a separation that requires replacement. Cost of repair: $300! Seller promised to address; will post resolution. Thanks for the comments.
Might want to get a 2nd opinion. If it's an M3, Youxin has fixed this problem for me more than once for a lot less money.
pvg
Member
At the end, camera is defective
At the end, camera is defective
Summary of events up today:
The ad in rangefinder forum described a camera in beautiful condition. No problems were reported by seller.
I paid full price based on description by seller.
Camera arrived (and seller got paid in full). However, upon inspection an optical problem in the viewfinder was apparent. Sherry Krauter, upon examining the camera, explained that a significant repair is necessary for making the camera functional (which she is doing).
Seller response: He promised partial reimbursement.
Status as today: I have not received any moneys from seller to partially or totally cover the cost of repair (zero, nada!...and no explanation for not making a partial reimbursement). However, I paid full price, assuming no cosmetic, mechanical or optical problems, as stated in the ad and in email exchanges with the seller.
I very much hope this is just an honest oversight by seller. However, I WILL ONLY post a follow-up if the seller will fulfill his stated promise (i.e., no follow up means no reimbursement).
So, Paypal protection or gentlemen agreement? Each one should make his mind.
At the end, camera is defective
Summary of events up today:
The ad in rangefinder forum described a camera in beautiful condition. No problems were reported by seller.
I paid full price based on description by seller.
Camera arrived (and seller got paid in full). However, upon inspection an optical problem in the viewfinder was apparent. Sherry Krauter, upon examining the camera, explained that a significant repair is necessary for making the camera functional (which she is doing).
Seller response: He promised partial reimbursement.
Status as today: I have not received any moneys from seller to partially or totally cover the cost of repair (zero, nada!...and no explanation for not making a partial reimbursement). However, I paid full price, assuming no cosmetic, mechanical or optical problems, as stated in the ad and in email exchanges with the seller.
I very much hope this is just an honest oversight by seller. However, I WILL ONLY post a follow-up if the seller will fulfill his stated promise (i.e., no follow up means no reimbursement).
So, Paypal protection or gentlemen agreement? Each one should make his mind.
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Frontman
Well-known
We all know that "beautiful" is a subjective term, and whenever someone describes a camera with such a vague term it should be taken with a grain of salt. I thought my first car (a 1971 Ford Pinto) was beautiful, but I doubt many people would agree with this opinion.
If I were in this situation (which I have a few times, I have sold more than 100 cameras over the internet in the last 6 months) I would simply return the camera and get my money refunded to me. Buyers have occasionally pointed out problems with cameras I have sold, and in these cases I invite them to return the camera for repair or replacement. I will not give partial refunds or pay for third-party repairs for cameras I have sold. I will not pay for third party repairs for the simple fact that there is no standard for camera repair pricing, a tech can charge whatever he feels like charging. Golden Touch one of the more expensive places to get a camera repaired. Sure, they do good work, but it's not necessarily better than that of many other techs who charge 1/3 the price for the same repair.
If I were in this situation (which I have a few times, I have sold more than 100 cameras over the internet in the last 6 months) I would simply return the camera and get my money refunded to me. Buyers have occasionally pointed out problems with cameras I have sold, and in these cases I invite them to return the camera for repair or replacement. I will not give partial refunds or pay for third-party repairs for cameras I have sold. I will not pay for third party repairs for the simple fact that there is no standard for camera repair pricing, a tech can charge whatever he feels like charging. Golden Touch one of the more expensive places to get a camera repaired. Sure, they do good work, but it's not necessarily better than that of many other techs who charge 1/3 the price for the same repair.
Wouter
Well-known
Well well. I am the seller of this camera and I have indeed committed to partial reimbursement. As the buyer himself stated in one of our exchanges, the defect in the viewfinder is difficult to detect. I myself have never experienced problems or cloudiness with the range/viewfinder of this M5, and I've used it for almost a year, hence the description 'excellent'. So was it there when I sold it ? Did rough handling during shipping (it was underway for almost two weeks) cause it to appear ? I really don't know. I will pay (200 dollars), yes, when I receive a scan of the invoice. That's reasonable, isn´t it ?
pvg
Member
As a matter of fact, several days ago I have pasted to an individual email from me to you the quote I got from Sherry Krauter (and she also has a listed phone number at Golden Touch if you would need any further confirmation she is doing the work). Thus, your new request is unnecessary. At this point I do not care if you keep the act up. Life is too short, I have much better things to do, and more importantly, I will pay her the $300 viewfinder repair with gusto, from my own pocket, as I am sure she will do an outstanding job (I know this from previous experience). Will I have an invoice? You bet. Will I send it to you? No. The reason is that yours is a request to make things more difficult than need to be in an effort to delay and save face. I am definitively closing this thread at my end.
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Wouter
Well-known
Come on Pablo. You gave the info but I believe it to be reasonable to be presented the invoice on the repair. What is so strange about that ? I do not believe that Sherry Krauter would give info on a service job to a person other than the owner of the camera. The 200 dollars are available, but only when the invoice stating the repair is presented.