Photo licensing help !

Lauffray

Lauffray

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Guys,

I'm stuck trying to make a decision and would really appreciate your wisdom. Last year I shot my friend's wedding as a favor, I'm not a professional I never do weddings I didn't ask him for money. Last week a wedding organizer who knows the couple contacted me about using some of my pictures to promote her business at an upcoming wedding event showcase thing in Montreal (next week !)
I'm fine with printing and showing at a booth for an event, I won't ask her for money, but she also wants to post them on Facebook (a very legitimate request) and possibly print them as advertising in magazines. She says she doesn't mind putting my name on them, but to me that's not the problem

Here's my dilemma, I don't want my pictures on Facebook/Pinterest/whatever but I understand it might hinder her business. I don't really care about profiting from this deal as long as I keep copyright and my pictures don't end up anywhere unattributed, printed in some terrible magazine or some sad website. Is this unreasonably protective on my part ?

I'm writing up a contract right now but somehow I come across as not really collaborative because it's tight and so terribly formal, on the other hand I can just flat out say no I'm not sure which is worse. Part of me sees this as an opportunity, the other part just doesn't want to bother with this businessy stuff because well I'm not in the business, and professional wedding photography is terribly competitive.

Advice ?
 
Can you PLEASE set a fee and then at least donate the money to a charity?

There are some really talented and deserving photographers out there who you are hurting by giving away your photos. Think about it, someone is about to financially benefit from your "Freetography", the more photo enthusiasts do this, the more this sets the expectation of people who are business minded not getting paid.

I just don't understand this....if you don't want to do weddings because they are competitive, then Don't Do them, even for free to ego build. You are willing to let the wedding planner profit off of your photos and the Bride and Groom and yet don't want to lose control? Then to hell with the "favor" to the planner who is just trying to take a free ride.

Photo enthusiasts say they only take photos for them selves then stop at damn near nothing to get either web praise or some other form of validation for their work by giving it away.....unreal...
 
Bill Clark said:
Do the people in the photographs know they will be in the various media you mentioned here? What if they don't want this?
Click to expand...

I asked my friend what he thought of the deal, he doesn't mind, he told me to do as I please since I'm the copyright holder.

KM-25 said:
Can you PLEASE set a fee and then at least donate the money to a charity?

There are some really talented and deserving photographers out there who you are hurting by giving away your photos. Think about it, someone is about to financially benefit from your "Freetography", the more photo enthusiasts do this, the more this sets the expectation of people who are business minded not getting paid.

I just don't understand this....
Click to expand...

This is exactly why I'm asking for advice, I'm not a professional so I didn't see that aspect, thanks for mentioning it, I'll be sure to ask for something.
 
Lauffray said:
Guys,

I'm stuck trying to make a decision and would really appreciate your wisdom. Last year I shot my friend's wedding as a favor, I'm not a professional I never do weddings I didn't ask him for money. Last week a wedding organizer who knows the couple contacted me about using some of my pictures to promote her business at an upcoming wedding event showcase thing in Montreal (next week !)
I'm fine with printing and showing at a booth for an event, I won't ask her for money, but she also wants to post them on Facebook (a very legitimate request) and possibly print them as advertising in magazines. She says she doesn't mind putting my name on them, but to me that's not the problem

Here's my dilemma, I don't want my pictures on Facebook/Pinterest/whatever but I understand it might hinder her business. I don't really care about profiting from this deal as long as I keep copyright and my pictures don't end up anywhere unattributed, printed in some terrible magazine or some sad website. Is this unreasonably protective on my part ?

I'm writing up a contract right now but somehow I come across as not really collaborative because it's tight and so terribly formal, on the other hand I can just flat out say no I'm not sure which is worse. Part of me sees this as an opportunity, the other part just doesn't want to bother with this businessy stuff because well I'm not in the business, and professional wedding photography is terribly competitive.

Advice ?
Click to expand...

If amateurs and so-called "part-time-pros" keep giving their work away, the ability to make a living with photography will disappear.

Pricing your work for its value, writing a contract with sensible terms of use and appropriate compensation for it, accepting fair compensation for work/services delivered, delivering quality work to spec and on time—these are all part of what it means to be responsible to both yourself and to the business of photography.

Photos of people delivered for commercial use (advertising primarily) in print or on the web require model releases from each recognizable person in the photos. The same goes for property releases, if your photographs highlight a particular private venue. You're responsible to acquire those releases, or, if the terms in your contract on a for-hire job states so, the entity intent upon using them for those purposes are. That's another part of the legal and business responsibilities of the photographer.

If you don't want to deal with all that, just say, "No."
Given what you've said above, I strongly recommend it.

It's nice to see an attribution line in a publication or on a website with your name in it, although a thousand of those won't buy you a cup of coffee. It's not so nice to be served with a subpoena if someone takes issue with having their likeness used in an advertisement without permission. No amount of 'wanting to be collaborative and helpful' to friends, family, acquaintances pays for that kind of trouble. Never mind the damage to the business of photography as a whole.

G
 
KM-25 said:
I just don't understand this....if you don't want to do weddings because they are competitive, then Don't Do them, even for free to ego build. You are willing to let the wedding planner profit off of your photos and the Bride and Groom and yet don't want to lose control? Then to hell with the "favor" to the planner who is just trying to take a free ride.

Photo enthusiasts say they only take photos for them selves then stop at damn near nothing to get either web praise or some other form of validation for their work by giving it away.....unreal...
Click to expand...

Please understand I'm not doing this for praise, I don't want to be known as a wedding photographer and I definitely am not looking for fame or a quick buck. The planner approached me not the reverse, and my friend's wedding was a favor I did him after a long conflicting internal debate. There are many reasons I don't want to do wedding, not only because they're competitive.
I understand where you're coming from, I do, but let's not get excited, I'm looking for advice because I'm ignorant of this business side and your answer has proven valuable
 
Lauffray said:
This is exactly why I'm asking for advice, I'm not a professional so I didn't see that aspect, thanks for mentioning it, I'll be sure to ask for something.
Click to expand...

Ok, well I did not get that at first, it seemed you were more concerned with losing track of the images on the web via the planner's self promotion, a valid concern...

So here goes, you are the wedding planner, I am the photo owner:

"Thanks for your interest in my work. Before I can calculate a price, a few questions:

1. What is the expected shelf life of the selected images, how long do you expect to use them in your campaign?

2. What is the scope of use? This can be printed mailers, business cards, print ads in magazines, newspapers, bookmark handouts. In web form this can be web sites, banner ads, email blasts and social media. In display form this can be part of a slide show on your laptop or iPad, on a TV display in your place of business, etc.

3. What protections are you willing to engage in to prevent unauthorized third party use and to protect the persons depicted in the photos?"


So lets say they want to use them for 2-3 years, no print, just some web and social media, maybe as part of a graphic on their own laptop. You charge them a gracious *minimum* of $300 and if they balk, you tell them why you need to charge and how it is going to a charity ( if you so choose ).

This person will NEVER do work for free, even if they just love the whole act of planning a wedding like a mother loves her first born child. You are not becoming a professional photographer as much as you are helping to protect those who are and gaining our respect by doing so.

I hope the info above helps you figure it all out, it is not as daunting as it sounds and if this person wants the photos for free only, you lose **nothing*** by saying no...

Also, Godfrey is spot on with regards to getting a release from anyone in the photos. A verbal agreement is no good here, you need written protection from legal fallout if such a circumstance were to occur.
 
Lauffray said:
Guys, thanks so much for your input. I've made my decision and I've informed the planner
Click to expand...

And thank you for putting enough concern on it to ask the questions, it moves things in the right direction…

One of the reasons I mentioned the charitable aspect of proposing a fee was born of my dealing with copyright infringement cases.

Depending on how the offending party initially deals with the assertion of infringement, I may offer to have the “bill” be a charitable donation. In some cases, I will even let the perp take the tax deduction as long as I have proof for my records. That way it starts to take the ugliness out of the whole thing and instead, fosters social capitol.

Sure, extra dough from someone running into the financial end zone holding my photo thinking it was a free for all has been nice to see happen, when that shoe fits. But in many cases it does not fit, so I think entering into a partnership of both dynamic informed awareness and a monetary societal gain is win-win in the long run.

In my opinion, this applies in a lot of other areas of our newfound web-species, we all gain in many ways by having things be as fair as they can humanly be.
 
KM-25 said:
Can you PLEASE set a fee and then at least donate the money to a charity?

There are some really talented and deserving photographers out there who you are hurting by giving away your photos. Think about it, someone is about to financially benefit from your "Freetography", the more photo enthusiasts do this, the more this sets the expectation of people who are business minded not getting paid.

I just don't understand this....if you don't want to do weddings because they are competitive, then Don't Do them, even for free to ego build. You are willing to let the wedding planner profit off of your photos and the Bride and Groom and yet don't want to lose control? Then to hell with the "favor" to the planner who is just trying to take a free ride.

Photo enthusiasts say they only take photos for them selves then stop at damn near nothing to get either web praise or some other form of validation for their work by giving it away.....unreal...
Click to expand...

I'm not intending to pile on but KM-25's comment should be etched in stone! In your subsequent comments you showed you understood where he is coming from and I (we all) appreciate that. I do make my living with photography and there is a common perception that all I do is "click the button" and voila! Yeah, it might look that way because I've been doing it for over 32 years and have learned a thing or two. That's being a professional and people have to pay for experience. As KM-25 noted, no one else gives away their services, nor should they.

Again, I'm not yelling at you, just echoing an important aspect of earning a living in a medium everyone thinks they can do.
 
The professional photography business is changing with those who don't adapt and figure out how to earn money, make a decent living, will be left behind. I find there is still plenty of opportunities to make money, earn enough for a respectable living with professional photography.

I believe that once the basics are learned my own creativity is what distinguishes my work from others. However, there is a basket of ingredients that are necessary to become successful with photography or any business.

At my age I do gigs that attract clients as some venues aren't for me anymore.

My advice, always live below your means. Save a little over a long time and the day will arrive that you can enjoy the fruits of your hard work. And pontificate on forums like this one!
 
You mentioned advertising was one of the planner's goals. Advertising without a signed moel release from every recognizable person in the photos is problematic.

I know the subjects are your friends, etc, But you you have to protect yourself. If you are going to license work you are essentially conducting business. A license requires an exchange of value between both parties. A business relationship is subject to law. Without proper model releases you are taking on risk. The fact that you plan to donate the your proceeds is irrelevant. The person who uses the images – the planner –is taking on a greater risk.

At the very least your contract with the planner should state there are no contextual model releases in effect. Then if the people in your photographs decide to sue, you will be less vulnerable. The planner can't claim you mislead them verbally about releases.

I think you should walk away from this deal since you "don't really care about profiting from this deal". Why take any risk? What sort of insurance do you have?

You wrote "... my pictures don't end up anywhere unattributed, printed in some terrible magazine or some sad website. Is this unreasonably protective on my part ?"

Once your photos are published on the internet you loose control of how they may be used by strangers. There is no protection from this. So this is unreasonably protective because protection is impossible. This is another reason to walk away.
 
You wrote "... my pictures don't end up anywhere unattributed, printed in some terrible magazine or some sad website. Is this unreasonably protective on my part ?"

Once your photos are published on the internet you loose control of how they may be used by strangers. There is no protection from this. So this is unreasonably protective because protection is impossible. This is another reason to walk away.[/QUOTE]

Not a pro, but I agree. If you want to do license work, do license work, and work contractually. If not, why would you need this? There are others, who will expect to profit from their work, whom the planner can contact.

If, as you suggest, it is not "about" you, then he only way it can become "about you" is by allowing use. I can't imagine anything coming from that other than a wash, or something bad. If bad, it can be uncontrollably bad. Expensively bad. Ruining-relationship-bad.

Please believe me, I am not saying "what's in it for me" is the world-view to have. Unfortunately, in this time, we often have to decide "what's the only way I can foul up", if possible, and go 180 degrees away from that. Here, you DON'T foul up, and DON't have risk if you just walk away and thank the planner for the complement. And that is what I'd do. Think of it as insurance.
And a contribution to your "pro" brothers and sisters. They have already thanked you.
 
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