photoflo one drop my arse!

J

jano

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Through the course of the last several months, I've been tearing my hair out because my negs all have residue and spots on them. Regardless of fixing time, washing time, distilled water, purified water, hair-drier vs hang to dry, etc etc etc. Tried it with and without photoflo.

Last night I read the directions on the bottle.. dilute one part in 200. Everyone here's told me "one drop" or "two drops". I decided to give it a go. I diluted 2ml into 400ml tap water. I dunked the reel w/ film in. manually agitated it a little. Watched it foamand bubble. pulled out the reel, shook it a bit to get large pieces of water off, then hung to dry.

Not only did the negs dry faster, they were SPOTLESS. I was surprised further that they had no dust, too!

w00t! (why doesn't that dance icon work???) Sure, the two goods parts may not necessarily correlate, but I'm a happy camper now.

So. If you're struggling with spotty negatives, try using a larger amount of photoflo!

Jano

PS: reels and tank washed out very clean very quickly very thoroughly too!
 
jano said:
Last night I read the directions on the bottle.. dilute one part in 200.
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Huh. Imagine that. You'd think Kodak actually wanted the product used correctly, to put the instructions on the label like that.

I use a medicine syringe (no needle) available at any drug store to measure out things like Rodinal, Photo-Flo, HC-110, and so on. Seems to work pretty well.

I don't know how much 'a drop or two' is, but 1+200 seems to work pretty well.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
I use half the recommended amount of photoflow with a filtered water rinse before adding rinsing in a 1 to 400 photoflow / filtered water mix. It works well, too.
 
I keep a gallon bottle about half full of a prepared Photoflo solution. I fill a large glass beaker with the solution, sit it on the edge of the bath tub and see-saw the negative strip through it. I hold the strip at an angle to allow excess solution to drain back into the beaker and then hang the strip to dry. I return the solution to the bottle for re-use. My negatives come out spot and dust free.

Walker
 
doubs43 said:
I keep a gallon bottle about half full of a prepared Photoflo solution. I fill a large glass beaker with the solution, sit it on the edge of the bath tub and see-saw the negative strip through it. I hold the strip at an angle to allow excess solution to drain back into the beaker and then hang the strip to dry. I return the solution to the bottle for re-use. My negatives come out spot and dust free.

Walker
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That is an extremely clever idea! I never thought of that, mix it up each time from the bottle of concentrate. I may try that myself.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
sniff. I've been trying to get Photo-Flo here for months now. No one stocks it, and drying marks are killing me. I'm overnight soaking in bottled water, which helps, but that means I just have relatively fewer drying marks.

The guy at my minilab actually ordered me what he said could be a substitute; it was Ektacolor Prime stabilizer and replenisher. He said to mix up the solution and carefully wipe off the marks with a soft cloth. I'm not game.

Congrats on the finding your "solution." (oof) :D
 
Bill, I agree, that's actually a great idea, and it could be reused for a long time! :) Thanks for the suggestion, Walker.

Stet.. you could try other things, maybe with a couple test rolls, use some dish-washer detergent, or a little baby shampoo following by a rinse in water + isopropyl alcohol? I've been pain-stakingly washing the drying marks off with a q-tip + isopropyl alcohol, which works well, but leaves lint, so I double my efforts in PS.

Jano
 
I am the least "scientific" in my measurements with photo-flo. I think the general idea on the dilution is a little goes a long way. I've also heard here that one should not allow bubbles and foam to form. :confused: I've never shied away from that either.


:)
 
stet said:
sniff. I've been trying to get Photo-Flo here for months now. No one stocks it, and drying marks are killing me. I'm overnight soaking in bottled water, which helps, but that means I just have relatively fewer drying marks.

....
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I believe you can use a common household dishwashing product, like Calgon (I think) in place of photo-flo. I've never used it, because I have a big supply of photo-flo. Anyone know the product name?


:
 
hm ... the dishwashing detergent works? I also read about using alcohol, as well as Zippo fluid, but the two forums I saw that, the posters who suggested it said they only knew of someone who did it but that it sounded risky.

I might give it a shot on a test roll ... thanks.
 
Use whatever you use in the kitchen for handwashing dishes, at about the same dilution you use for washing dishes: a medium to generous squirt to a basin of water.
 
stet said:
hm ... the dishwashing detergent works? I also read about using alcohol, as well as Zippo fluid, but the two forums I saw that, the posters who suggested it said they only knew of someone who did it but that it sounded risky.

I might give it a shot on a test roll ... thanks.
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Stet, not detergent. I think the product is actually the dishwashing machine additive that keeps glasses spotless.

:)
 
stet said:
sniff. I've been trying to get Photo-Flo here for months now. No one stocks it, and drying marks are killing me. I'm overnight soaking in bottled water, which helps, but that means I just have relatively fewer drying marks.

The guy at my minilab actually ordered me what he said could be a substitute; it was Ektacolor Prime stabilizer and replenisher. He said to mix up the solution and carefully wipe off the marks with a soft cloth. I'm not game.

Congrats on the finding your "solution." (oof) :D
Click to expand...

Photo-flo is a wetting agent - it works by reducing the natural surface tension of water so that it does not bead up but instead runs off negatives. It does not do anything chemically to keep spots from appearing - it keeps water from forming beads which then dry and leave behind the residue suspended in most water - calcium, things like that. The calcium or whatever is still in the water, but it runs off the neg with the water instead of sticking around until the water dries.

There are other wetting agents.

Rexton Hyperwet 240:
http://www.adorama.com/CHRHW4.html

Fuji Dri-Well (can't find a link to buy it)

Maco Master Proof:
http://www.mahn.net/PDLiefe.htm

There may be lots more - search for "wetting agent" in Google.

I know many people claim that liquid detergent can be used in place of wetting agents for films. I would not do so and do not recommend it. Both are surfactants, that is, they change the surface tension of water, but soap is not designed to leave without being rinsed away - and that of course destroys the value of using it as a wetting agent. If you don't rinse it away, you get the soap streaks left behind. I don't want to get in a fight with anyone about this - some claim it works a treat, they've used it all their lives, Photo-Flo is just a jar of soap tricked up to make Kodak money, etc. Whatever, people should do as they wish.

The reason some people say not to agitate the Photo-Flo (or whatever) is because it foams up - as soap does, yes. You may notice while doing the dishes that foamy soap sticks to things; water slides off. You again ruin the surfactant qualities of the wetting agent by making it into an emulsion that sticks to the film itself - it is then trapping water instead of making water run off.

Someone here recently mentioned using isopropyl alcohol as a drying agent, and I had never heard of that before, but I guess it is done by some. I would fear it for the fire danger as it evaporated, but that's just me, I guess. I would also suppose it would not have a salutory effect on the longevity of the resulting negatives if that is what one was aiming for.

People get religious about this stuff, so I'm going to stop here. Good luck finding something like Photo-Flo where you are!

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

Edit: Here's a PN link that may add fuel to the fire:

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=001HoQ
 
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RayPA said:
Stet, not detergent. I think the product is actually the dishwashing machine additive that keeps glasses spotless.

:)
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Jet-Dry. Photo-Flo is cheaper!

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
Ash said:
So can you use washing up liquid or a dishwasher tab to rinse the negs then?
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If you wash your dishes and don't rinse them, they will taste like soap, yes? That's because there will be soap left on them.

If you use washing-up liquid on negs, then soap will be left behind. Unless you rinse them after. And then you've got the same problem that you had before you put soap on them - water dries and leaves spots. The spots are due to minerals in the water that remain behind when the water evaporates.

People notice that 'wetting agents' for film and dish detergent are both 'surfactants' and jump to the conclusion that they are the same thing - they are not. Both reduce the surface tension of water, yeah. But Photo-Flo and wetting agents like it are designed to cause water to sheet off negs and not form beads, beads which evaporate in place and leave behind minerals (spots). Soap is designed to break the oil or grease & water suface barrier so that oil and grease can be removed with water by dissolving in it. VERY DIFFERENT.

One might as well notice that soap is slippery and so is the oil in your car, so why not fill up the crankcase with soap?

It is possible (in my opinion) that the wetting agents found in the after-detergent dishwashing machines such as Jet-Dry *might* work well enough for film, but I'd have to experiment to be sure, and why bother when Photo-Flo is available and very cheap per use?

As to water - both filtered and distilled water contain minerals - it is a myth that they don't cause negs to spot. Filtered water might contain less particulate matter, but it depends on how it was filtered. De-mineralized water *is* free of minerals and other contaminants, but is expensive.

I don't see what the problem people have with Photo-Flo is - presuming that it or a workalike is available.

Short answer - no soap won't work.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
Ash said:
uk equivalent? http://www.goodnessdirect.co.uk/cgi-local/frameset/detail/967741.html

>30% water, 15-30% sugar fermented alcohol, 5-15% citric acid, <5% sugar based non-ionic surfactant.
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If I were concerned with the long-term stability of my negs, I'd be somewhat worried about the citric acid in that stuff. Acid or alkaline environments tend to degrade emulsion over time, I think. If I were concerned for archival effects, I'd check into that.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
Ash said:
So can you use washing up liquid or a dishwasher tab to rinse the negs then?
Click to expand...

I suppose you could, but the problem with these things is that they all contain a lot of stuff (perfumes, detergents) BESIDES wetting agent. The point of using Photo-Flo is that it reduces surface tension and doesn't contain additives that do anything else.

Jet-Dry, the dishwasher stuff, is different from dishwasher detergent in that it's also purely a wetting agent, and it's made to serve exactly the same purpose as Photo-Flo: to break up surface tension so the water runs off the dishes in an even film rather than drying in spots. I suppose that if you can't get Photo-Flo, this would be the best substitute -- still, I'd think it would be hard to figure the correct concentration, since it's designed to be dispensed into the vast interior of a dishwasher rather than the small quantity of water you'd use to rinse negatives.

Incidentally, I'm one of the people who also add isopropyl alcohol to my final rinse. I mix a final rinse with the measured quantity of Photo-Flo, then add the same amount of alcohol. If your water is really minerally, you may need to use a bit more, but either way you don't need much.

Why I started doing this: For years, even with the correct concentration of Photo-Flo, I was plagued by a whitish "track" of mineral deposits running down the middle of every strip of negatives I'd dry. Evidently, even though the Photo-flo was breaking down surface tension enough to eliminate the formation of droplets, the water running down the film still lingered long enough to deposit some of its mineral content.

I read about the alcohol trick in the old British "Practical Photography" mag (before it got quite so digital), tried it, and it solved the problem immediately. I'm not sure WHY it works -- I suspect that either the alcohol breaks down the minerals so they flow off more easily, or that it helps the water evaporate before the minerals can stick to the film. Whatever it is, my negatives now come out sparkling clean. I'm sure that archival purists would disapprove, although I'm not sure why, but I figure that the risk of damage I'd incur when trying to clean off the glop outweighs whatever risk might be imposed by the alcohol residue.
 
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