Photographer Meets Homeland Security Agents

[bmattock]

His name escapes me at the moment, but there was a photographer many years ago who made his claim to fame photographing steam-engine trains. Pity the poor soul in this day and age.

It's always interesting to read comments from people in other countries. They are probably as misinformed about the U. S. as we are about their countries. But George Orwell may have been right - and 1984 was 21 years ago.

O. Winston. NPR did something on him recently. He recorded sounds, too. Very cool. Pity he's gone, but yes, he'd have trouble these days.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[bmattock]

I'm glad to say that's a slight overstatement of the facts.

There have been reports of photographers photographing children being questioned under suspicion of making obscene pictures - but no convictions yet that I'm aware of.

Over here (US) we call that being arrested. Not the same as being convicted, but you're still in jail.

And it has happened in the USA as well. There have been several stories about well-meaning folks in those 'one-hour' places who've see photos of naked babies splashing around in a wading pool, taken by proud grandparents, and reported them to the police - grandparents arrested, etc. Some have been charged, even convicted (one after a plea deal). One granddad can no longer see his grandchild legally - he was not given prison time, but he is now and forever more a 'convicted sex offender' and cannot be permitted to be with children.

With my two hats on (youth worker and photographer) I'm increasingly frustrated by this distrust of people with cameras, especially evident when there's childern around.

I always think twice about pointing a camera at a kid, even one I know.

Which is sad.

But I'm very, very paranoid 😀

We (all of us) have to protect our children from predators, and there are a lot of sick people out there.

However, as awful as it can be, in the past, it meant that still no one could be arrested until a crime had been comitted. For example, you can't arrest a fellow for robbing a convenience store if he just walks into the store - he has to 'do something' that proves his intent first.

In our zeal to protect children, we've created this 'shoot first' mentality that means that if anyone so much as glances at a child, arrest them - they MUST be a predator! And if they take a PHOTOGRAPH...well, send them straight to hell.

Here is a link to "Shots" magazine, which I subscribe to. This is a recent issue, entitled "Children".

http://www.shotsmag.com/shots86.htm

Obscene? Illegal? I dunno, no one got arrested as far as I know. I'd be leary of taking some of those shots myself - in fact, I wouldn't do it.

What if I get my house raided for taking photos of prohibited trains? Would my copy of this magazine be considered child pornography? Then what happens?

There are always those who feel that if you do nothing 'wrong' you cannot possibly get into trouble.

My friends, I believe that those days are LONG gone - if they indeed ever existed.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[bmattock]

Hey🙂

Would he be related to that other train photographer, Winston O. Link? 😉

Regards

ManGo

I think we were both wrong - O. Winston Link.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[bmattock]

The US has always been paranoid, I was refused entrance in the US because of partyship of a liberal student union in South Africa (anti-appartheid) back in 1974. I illegally entered through Canada in 1977 and was jailed for 6 months before being kicked out. Only in 1985 and with help of Harvard was I granted a 2 year working permit to do research work there. The observation however was so threatening and life-emposing to me and my family that I left after 13 months swearing to have nothing ever to with US technology/affairs ever again, apart from the occasional Photo-Forum. I now still belong to a "anti-US" European group of scientists boycotting any assistance to US related research and/or affairs.
The US is apparantly a great and beautiful country, pitty it's run by a bunch of dillatent "fill your own pockets first" dilletant short sighted politicians.... I realize and respect, emphasizing "respect" the fact that most of you do not agree with me, it's called liberalism and this word and it's meaning should be introduced into the American dictionary ... World affairs will improve and it will make it a better place to live for all inhabitants ...

Jarvis,

May I say with sincerity that I appreciate and accept your point of view, and I am sorry that the US did not grant you a Visa in 1974 if it was truly because you were against apartheid. However, and with respect - I am not sorry that the US jails and deports those who enter our country illegally. Again, my sympathies that it happened to you.

I was somewhat concerned when I started this thread that it would become 'political' and I really don't want to be responsible for a flame-war here. Let's keep this about photography and the law, if you don't mind. If we ever meet up, I'd love to debate you over a beer!

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[bmattock]

Well, whatever works! Hey, I'm just jazzed - we have a new Pope! Viva il Papa!

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[JoeFriday]

I think it's best not to start a political rant here.. especially given the multi-national nature of this site

and it might help to consider that much of what is being shared is secondhand stories and speculation.. even stories from some of the major media outlets have been shown to be a bit 'exaggerated'

but I agree that's it's alarming how subjective laws are becoming

 

[Pherdinand]

Hey, we all are humans. We have favourite places and we have been in places which we did not like for one reason or another. We all know people in those places who are reasonable or more than reasonable, in the same time. Generalizing based on bad experiences or bad news, leads to nothing else but problems. Just as one should not form its oppinion about arabic countries and people based on the 9/11 actions, or the wonderful basque country and the very friendly basques just because a few stupid ones at ETA, we also should not form an oppinion on the US due to our bad experience with its legislation. I had problems with my residence permit here in the Netherlands myself, due to a semi-analphabet peckerhead sitting behind a pile of papers in a too important function, confusing my name with somebody elses, but still i don't hate dutch people, i love dutch cheese and just in the last few days I was proud to show some cool places here in NL to my gf and her friend.
And all the RFF members are great guys (and especially girls) no matter where they come from, what cameras they prefer or how their feet smell after a long evening of forumming. 🙂

 

[bmattock]

I think it's best not to start a political rant here.. especially given the multi-national nature of this site

and it might help to consider that much of what is being shared is secondhand stories and speculation.. even stories from some of the major media outlets have been shown to be a bit 'exaggerated'

I agree with you, and I don't want to start a firestorm here either. I also agree with you that many stories are 'exaggerated' as reported by news agencies. However, arrests are arrests. If it is news and it is appropriate to rangefinder photography, I see no reason not to post and comment on it - to pretend that such things are not happening is not meet.

However, I will do my very, very, best to avoid confrontation and hyperbole and not to start a flame war.

I merely wanted to report that this (or some watered-down version of it, as you wish) is happening and is something to be concerned about. Especially given some of our member's propensity to take photos of trains, tall buildings, bridges, and children.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[JoeFriday]

don't worry Bill.. I wasn't trying to suggest anyone did/said anything inappropriate.. I just wanted to prevent any unintentional offenses by mentioning that we all need to scrutinize what we read

but it's still important to share information.. just gotta keep it in context 🙂

 

[dmr]

Train spotters- UK, Railfans- US,

The way I understand it, and this may not totally be correct, since I don't claim to be either, is that railfans are those hobbyists who like trains, ride trains, photograph trains, study trains, and talk about trains. 🙂 While trainspotters are those who do things like try to observe every car of every series, write down engine and car numbers in their diary and such.

That's the way I understand it, anyway. 🙂

 

[bmattock]

The way I understand it, and this may not totally be correct, since I don't claim to be either, is that railfans are those hobbyists who like trains, ride trains, photograph trains, study trains, and talk about trains. 🙂 While trainspotters are those who do things like try to observe every car of every series, write down engine and car numbers in their diary and such.

That's the way I understand it, anyway. 🙂

I just like to take pictures of trains. Hehehehe.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[bmattock]

don't worry Bill.. I wasn't trying to suggest anyone did/said anything inappropriate.. I just wanted to prevent any unintentional offenses by mentioning that we all need to scrutinize what we read

but it's still important to share information.. just gotta keep it in context 🙂

Nah, I didn't take it the wrong way. I knew when I posted it that there was the off-chance that someone might go off on a tangent, but we're all pretty grown-up here on RFF and I hope that won't happen. I realize it's a thin line and I don't post most of the news clippings about photography that I receive (Google searches automatically mailed to me). This one seemed important given our memberships' activities.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[vladhed]

not so bad up here, not yet i think.

unless you live in Ottawa and happen to be walking by the US Embassy with a big 70-200mm F2.8 lens attached to a 10D. Couple of guys in thephotoclub at work were stopped and questioned for 10 minutes because they happened to walk down Sussex on their way to the National Art Gallery/Nepean Point area to do some night shooting of the river/city.

 

[bmattock]

Well, and this is what I'm hearing a lot of..."stopped and questioned." Even when there is no arrest, even when there is no confiscation, being "stopped and questioned" in my opinion is a Bad Thing.

I was once in law enforcement here in the US, both federal and local at different times. I full well know when a police officer may "stop and question" a person and what they may ask. A cop generally can stop anyone on 'mere suspicion' that a crime has been comitted - that's less than 'probable cause'. But the cop can only ask who the person is and what they are doing. That's it. Who are you? Bill Mattocks. What are you doing here? Taking a photo. That's it. That's all they can ask unless you are breaking the law. It doesn't take 10 minutes.

Frankly, if it happens to me, I walk away and find out if I get tackled. I may end up in Guantanamo Bay, but I'm not going to just fold up and give up my rights because we have terrorists lurking about that need stopping.

I once took a photo at the San Diego Airport of two cops on a golf cart - I thought it was amusing because they were both very overweight. They asked me what I was doing. I told them I was taking a picture. Their picture? Yep. Could they see the picture? Nope. Could they see the camera? Nope. They didn't want me to take their photo, they said. Too bad, I said. What if they were to arrest me? Go ahead, I said. Arrest me. You're public employees, I said. You're on public property, as am I, I said. I'll take your photo if I want to, and you won't do a thing about it. Life sucks, get a helmet.

Then I put my camera away, walked into the airport, and got on my plane. I won't pretend I wasn't sweating bullets at the time, but I was not going to cave in to thuggery or illegal demands. This happened August 18, 2002. Nowadays, I'd probably still be in jail awaiting trial.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[bmattock]

You rebel, you. 🙂

My father used to call me a sh*t magnet. What can I say?

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[Socke]

Ruben, as you mention the Angels, they are growing old!

 

[Socke]

To the political part of this thread, I am concerned about all that. But the discussions everywhere make me confident that something like the Nazi takeover in germany will not happen again.

If I'd be questioned why I read some books the press would be full of that the next day, if they stop me shooting the locks I'd complain in the press as well.
The free press is what dictators fear most and as long as we have a free press, nothing is lost.

 

[Goodyear]

Over here (US) we call that being arrested. Not the same as being convicted, but you're still in jail.

Ah ha. I read 'jailed for being a paedophile' as convicted - I wouldn't called being held for questioning being jailed for anything - other than questioning 🙂 Still don't like it, though.

Reagrding your other points re protection of children, we have a policy of securing consent when there's going to be cameras used by staff. It's not a legal requirement, but it's a sensible precaution - this is above and beyond any permission to use images.

Protection of children is at the very heart of what I do, but I still question the paranoia that grows up when there's kids about. Long time ago, Ir ead a book by Michael Crichton, can't remember which one, but it pndered for a bit about how a father could be afraid to comfort his crying child in the street in case his contact was viewed suspiciously.

These days, when I'm faced with a young person who is upset, happy, whatever, I think twice about every single thing I say and do. Partly becasue I'm paranoid, and partly becasue I know what can happen if you don't.

Yet I mourn the passing of common sense where a guy with a camera... may just be a guy with a camera, y'know?

 

[reellis67]

I was once in law enforcement here in the US, both federal and local at different times. I full well know when a police officer may "stop and question" a person and what they may ask. A cop generally can stop anyone on 'mere suspicion' that a crime has been committed - that's less than 'probable cause'. But the cop can only ask who the person is and what they are doing. That's it. Who are you? Bill Mattocks. What are you doing here? Taking a photo. That's it. That's all they can ask unless you are breaking the law. It doesn't take 10 minutes.

Frankly, if it happens to me, I walk away and find out if I get tackled. I may end up in Guantanamo Bay, but I'm not going to just fold up and give up my rights because we have terrorists lurking about that need stopping.

I have been keeping my mouth shut because I tend to get labeled as a troublemaker when it comes to civil rights issues, but I wanted to say that I am glad to see someone post our rights as defined by the law. I would also like to add that in addition to only limited to general questioning when you are not under arrest, the police cannot take your film or make you pull it out of the camera without a court order. They can arrest you for trespassing if you are not careful about where you stand, and there is a possibility that they might, in certain circumstances, make something up in order to arrest you, even though this is not very likely. In my personal experience, I have found that as long as you remain civil you will be fine. If they get hostile, just state clearly that you are aware of your rights and that they do not have the right to threaten you, remain calm, call 911 on your cell phone if needed, and in most cases, you will be fine.

Just be aware of your rights as a photographer, be civil in all dealing with authorities, and do not cave in when you are right. Remember, we still have the legal right to photograph in public places. Just be sure you know what is public and what is not...

- Randy

 

[sooner]

I too have had to adjust my shooting of kids lately, so now I only do it with my clothes on. No more naked photography! Just kidding. As a dad who takes lots of pictures of his young kids, I make sure people know they're MY kids, and I never shoot other kids (but then again, why would I?). Or almost. Last weekend at a big fair, I photographed a friend's kid on a bunji jump ride, but made sure to make contact with him first so all the waiting parents knew I wasn't some pervert.

Bravo to Bill for pointing out our rights and representing a view that we can and should stand up to fear and official thuggery. As an attorney myself, let me point out that there is a tort called "false arrest," so depending on the circumstances an overzealous security person may be committing a compensable wrong. If we don't stand up for our rights, they certainly will disappear.