Photographer Meets Homeland Security Agents

Dear Bill,

I agree completely that laws that are not enforced are very bad indeed, because they bring the law as a whole into disrepute. Even worse are laws that are capriciously enforced, where the risk of being caught is very small, as with most drug use laws (which is what Sir Robert was talking about). An old maxim is that CERTAINTY of punishment is a far more effective deterrent than SEVERITY of punishment, e.g. if you know for sure that you'll go down for two years it's much more of a deterrent than the one-in-hundreds possibility you might go down for 15.

Driving standards provide an excellent illustration of how every nation has its own strange beliefs. Americans stop for school buses, for example. Why? As there are no hecatombs of children anywhere else in the world as a result of people not stopping for school buses, this is clearly a pointless law. I couldn't believe it when I first encountered it in the 1960s. Indeed, why stop at a four-way stop when there is no-one coming? As the man said, foolish.

There is no perfect state. Malta is quite fun -- as a Maltese said, "This is the freest country in the world. There are not many laws, and the ones we don't like, we ignore anyway." From personal experience (living for extended periods in UK, France, USA, Bermuda, and months spent in India, Greece, Germany, Portugal, plus visits to countless other countries) I prefer the ones where the police don't worry unless you are doing something dangerous or hurtful to other people, and I most dislike the ones where IF they catch you doing something entirely harmless (such as going through a 4-way stop when there's no-one there) they throw the book at you -- but as they almost never catch you, the law is only there at the back of your mind anyway.

Cheers,

Roger
 
I am more inclined towards the viewpoint that people should challenge the stupid laws whenever possible. The dictatorships rarely established on spot these days, but are coming down in a mostly legal form through numerous small freedom-eroding legislations.

I happen to live in one of such places. If anyone told me 10 years ago that we'll have a lifetime president I'd laugh in response. Today unauthorised mass gathering is a criminal offense, trade unions are effectively banned, supreme court judges are appointed by the president, and it all didn't just happen overnight.

So challenge the authority whenever it is within your powers, and regardless how insignificant the case is.
 
Dear Varjag,

Perhaps it is a case that different dictatorships require different approaches -- or perhaps, more probably, you are right.

The trouble is, how far does a protest 'at the coal face' work? The people you are dealing with are also intimidated -- except for the ones that REALLY enjoy the power these regulations give them.

When I was a boy in the 1950s there was a term for people like that, "Little Hitlers". You seldom hear it today -- but it is more needed than ever.

Cheers,

Roger
 
Okay, if no one is going to say it, I will. Jarvis, you're an idiot. Sorry to everyone else, but man your post is just simply obsurd. In your post you stated clearly that you are "Anti-US" and that you are the "partyship of a liberal student union in South Africa (anti-appartheid)" and you "still belong to a "anti-US" European group of scientists boycotting any assistance to US related research and/or affairs." Come on man, what the heck did you expect????!!! You expect the US to simply let you in? The US is not paranoid, they are just keeping out people like you who don't like the US. Why even enter if you don't like the country or what the country is about? Heck, I don't want you here. I kick you out myself if I had the power to.

Anyway, back to the topic. I've been commissioned to document Los Angeles...specifically Downtown LA. Pretty big task. Most of the times, I'm out on the streets by myself with my Bessa or Hasselblad but once in awhile I busted out my 4x5. Suprisingly, I have yet to get hassled. I've shot the Disney Music Hall and downtown high rises with my 4x5 (you guys know how much attention that attracts, right?) no problems at all. Police officers on bicycles didn't even give me a hard time. I gave them a nice wave and a hi, and they did the same thing back. I've even shot City Hall without a hitch. I guess it all comes down to your luck. I'm not saying I never got questioned or hassled before by authorities, but even when I did it was never as bad as some of you guys had it...search the trunk, pop the hood, etc. Maybe you should park futher away next time?=) I just simply explain to them what I'm doing and they left me alone. I guess with all the law suits going on in LA regarding racism in the police force, they are more relaxed about hassling photogs.
 
dphotoguy,
GENTLEMEN, Please! Let's remember this is the RFF and we're all friends under the flag of photography while we're here.
You do make one good point though; looking an official in the eye while smiling and waving (with ALL fingers) will generally get a wave in return and left alone.
But if you act afraid, turn away and look suspious - They will wonder what your UP TO and start asking questions.
 
Seconded - let's all get along! This is RFF, not another flame-war photo board! On RFF, I just ignore the parts that would ordinarily make me wax wroth. We're friends here, we can stand a difference of opinion or two, right?

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
“Pray excuse a bit of sarcasm,” said Smith to Jones, “but you are an infamous liar and a scoundrel”
“Pardon a touch of irony,” replied Jones to Smith, knocking him down with a poker.


A couple of observations: Yes overdoing security can be an intimidating experience. About one more word would have put me in handcuffs at the Portland, Oregon airport a couple of years ago when dealing with a security person who appeared to be on a power trip.

That being said, I admit that some of my best friends are law enforcement officers (most of them retired). Consider their position. If they try to make sure every potential threat is checked, some of the people they encounter will be pi**ed and some TV reporter will be poking a camera in their faces and asking them to justify their tactics. If, only the other hand, they give people the benefit of the doubt and something bad happens, that same TV reporter will be in their faces demanding to know how such a thing could happen and demanding a Congressional investigation. They can't win.

It's easy for us to say "They (the cops) should be able to tell I am a nice guy and harmless photographer just by looking at me." I'm sure a lot of rapists, child molestors and terrorists can come across as "nice guys," too, when it suits them.

There is no easy answer
 
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Roger Hicks said:
Driving standards provide an excellent illustration of how every nation has its own strange beliefs. Americans stop for school buses, for example. Why? As there are no hecatombs of children anywhere else in the world as a result of people not stopping for school buses, this is clearly a pointless law. I couldn't believe it when I first encountered it in the 1960s. Indeed, why stop at a four-way stop when there is no-one coming? As the man said, foolish.

In September 1961, I was standing at the front door of a school bus waiting to get of (I was the second stop on the bus route). The bus halted at its first stop, extended its stop sign and opened the door for a seven-year-old girl to exit. She got off, walked across in front of the bus and was struck a car driven by a teenager traveling about 70 miles per hour, who had ignored the bus stop signal and passed it. The girl's body landed about 250 feet from the point of impact.

THAT'S why there is a law prohibiting passing a stopped school bus.
 
it just infuriates me when some one like jarvis accuses others for doing him wrong when it is obvious he is at fault. always pointing fingures at others while never realizing their own faults. this goes with people who gets into trouble with law enforcement officers when shooting in public areas. if you are nice and patient with them, they will be nice back to you. if you come off like a smart ass jerk off photog telling them "i know my rights!," than don't complain if you get harassed. i think majority of people who complain about being harassed are ones that really deserves it. there is probably more to the story than they really made it to be. people are always trying to make the law enforcement officers look bad, so i wouldn't be suprised if they withheld some truth to those stories.
 
Guys, read Jarvis' post a bit more closely, please! As far as I understood it, he was refused entry to the US the first time only because he was a member of an anti-aprtheid liberal students' union - something that does not at all warrant this ban, and something he can be rather proud of, considering the nature of the South African regime at that time (today they would be called part of the 'axis of evil'...); it seems like only after that incident he became pissed-off at the US - quite understandably so, I'd say...

Roman
 
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Varjag,
I hope the regime in Belarus is the next to go, after Ukraine and Kirgistan!
And to keep this at least slightly on topic, my only ex-Soviet 35mm SLR is a Zenit from Belarus...
Roman
 
I'm not suggesting driving at 70 mph past school buses, obviously, nor am I suggesting that you don't exercise reasonable caution. But as I said in my original post, there are no hecatombs of dead children beside bus-stops in any other country, where this law doesn't exist, so clearly, it cannot be an essential or even valuable law.

The fact that the law was ignored so tragically in this case rather reinforces my argument: people ignore laws that they see as pointless. Probably the teenage driver would have gone through, law or no law -- and certainly, as evidenced by every other country in the world of which I am aware, any sensible driver would have slowed down and looked out for children.

You can't legislate for common sense, so the school bus law assumes none. Tell people they are idiots, and they will start behaving like idiots.

I'll also support Jarvis. It is possible to have the utmost admiration for the United States and still to disagree with some of the things they do. Something that astonishes me is that the Visa Waiver program doesn't apply to anyone writing for the foreign press. Surely to deny journalists easy entry (as easy as anyone else, anyway) is more appropriate to a tin-pot dictatorship than to the richest and most powerful country in the world.

Remember too that from the 18th century British viewpoint, Washington and his crew were terrorists... To make a wild generalization, I would say that because Europeans live in a patchwork of different countries with a good deal of common history, they tend to be better at understanding another country's point of view. Unless you can try to put yourself in another man's shoes -- even a terrorist -- it is very hard to understand anything.

You don't have to agree with someone to understand their resentments, as witness the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. One can sympathize with both, without unconditionally supporting either.

Cheers,

Roger
 
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I think one problem, which we can solve here at least for us, is what we know about the USA on our side of the atlantic and vice versa.
I have been in the USA east coast in 1984 and 1998. The first time was while I was in the german Navy and we sailed from Rosevelt Roads, Puerto Rico to Boston, MA. With stops in Rosevelt Roads, San Juan, Jacksonville, Norfolk and Boston. In 1998 I visited my then girlfriend who studied at the NY StateU to add a MBA to the german diploma. So I haven't seen much 🙂

So everything I say about the USA is based on second hand information and I stand to be corrected.

And yes, I didn't like the war in Iraq. I think no soldier, active or retired, likes war and if there is one, I don't want him on my side!

A couple of things disturbs me. The USA not signing the Kyoto treaty, the (again, as percieved in Europe) warmongering, the DMCA and the patriot act for example.

A couple of years ago a russian programmer was detained when he arived in the USA to hold a speach. He broke Adobes encryption on E-Books to make them available to the blind and was jailed for month. His employer is speicalised on software for the disabled and what he did was perfectly legal in Russia and most of Europe, then.
A 15 year old boy in Norway was detained after the USA put pressure on the Norwegian government because he broke the DVD encryption to watch DVDs on a Linux system instead of Windows.

After that happend, the Linux kernel developers outside the USA where shy of entering the USA.
I hosted a patch to the kernel enabling users to use strong encryption (perfectly legal in germany), together with travels to China and Cuba this makes me a bit concerned if I end up in Guantanamo instead of Miami 🙂.

Another thing, I donated to the Afghan Freedom Fighters Fund in the 80's, those Mujahedin where heroes when they fought the soviets 🙂

On the other hand, relations between states are something totaly different to relations between people. A friend of mine, whose mother is greek and whose stepfather is a Turk, is maried to a Kurd. The wedding was just great with greeks, turks, kurds and germans partying. You wouldn't believe that Greece and Turkey quarrel over Cyprus and that (some of) the Kurds are fighting a guerrilla war in Turkey.

So as this guy, who fought in Angola, said to me, "Un hombre es un hombre, verdad?"

cuba_003000400.jpg
 
Uncle Bill said:
This is indeed the age of fear in the first world, like others I only take pictures of children in my own family. Granted living in Canada which is an oasis of sanity in this "Have a nice Day World" I do not have to deal with a Homeland Security. I just shake my head when I hear these stories.

Bill

Yes, Canada has been blessed so far, not having been the subject of type of terror attacks suffered by UK, Spain and USA, among others. I think that it will be interesting to watch the reaction of countries such as Thailand, Australia and Indonesia to recent attacks. Have a nice day.
 
Hey, Roger Hicks, glad to see that you have returned to RFF. I always appreciated your thoughtful and articulate comments on the RFF fora.

dexdog
 
This thread seems to imply that the decendants of European immigrants have a long-term, God-given right to occupy and rule the Americas.
 
Socke said:
Kevin, do we realy want them back 🙂?

The natives need their continents back, so yes, we are obliged to welcome the old Europeans back, with open arms.

Those aircraft carriers can bring over thousands at a time.

Compare them to the boats from the previous four centuries and you will see how easy it is.

There is a lot of space in central Spain, Portuagal, Eastern Europe and Scandinavia.
 
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