Photographer sued for portrait

Skinny McGee said:
I wonder how the guy even found out about his picture being in the book or in the gallery. Most people who got to photo galleries and buy photo books are usually in to photography aren't they. Just curious

That's not a huge leap - anybody who knows the guy in even a casual acquaintance would be sure to tell you if you appeared in some book. You're famous now! Ask anybody who happens to resemble a celebrity - they quite often get told so often that they're sick of hearing it.
 
I think there's a big difference between the picture being of the person and the person simply being in the picture. If the person is the subject and the work is for commercial use then they should have the choice. However if the person is simply in the picture and not the actual subject then that's a different matter just like pictures for portfolios, exhibitions and editorial.
 
mikebrice@mac.c said:
Also, paparzzi sell to editorial outlets - some may be on the fringe - but they are editorial outlets.

The difference is in this case the photographer used the picture for commercial use as opposed to editorial.

Fact is, if someone took my picture and was selling it for $20,000, I would want a share.

Interesting view. But why not have a photographer take your picture then pay him. Keep the rights and sell the shot for $20,000.00

At the rate that the leeches keep coming for cash some one will acquire the photographic rights to Mt Rushmore. No more pictures unless you pay the man.

It's all about avarice. If the plaintiff was to demand the picture be removed or 'profits' given to a charity I might think otherwise. It's a grab.

Jan
 
Avarice doesnt extend to profitting off of someone without paying them for it? Or is the businessman the greedy one since artists cant be greedy, being that they're in art and the other man wears a suit?
 
I think you need to try to see it from a different perspective - that of the person on the other side of the camera, and of the reasonable expectations of members of the public that people should not be exposed in a spotlight unless they agree to it.

In a sense, I think the question being discussed is what the law should be, and where it may be going.

It may be that in the past, photographers have taken it to be their right to photograph whatever presents itself in public, and to publish the photos. The photographers' preferred view was that as long as the intent was "artistic" or "editorial" and not commercial, it was ok to publish, whether the person knew about it or consented.

But try to look at things from the perspective of some ordinary person, not a celebrity, public figure or participant in an activity that is in a spotlight, who finds their photo published in a mass circulation publication, in a way that they are clearly identifiable. No, make that identified. You were walking on the sidealk downtown, and now there you are on the front page of the daily newspaper, name and all.

The law usually tends to reflect what people think is fair and reasonable. I think protection of the right to be in public and remain essentially private, in terms of not having one's image published in a way that results in "identifiable exposure", is a right the the law will (and should) increasingly protect.

I suspect that most people would be inclined to view publication of such a photo without consent as an invasion of a reasonable expectation of privacy, even though the person was in a "public place". As well, I would think that most people would be prepared to set aside the photographer's expectation, based on past practice, that he or she has a right to publish without the consent of the subject any image they make of people in public places, even if the publication results in people being subjected to unwelcome publicity.



Matthew said:
I entirely disagree with the notion that photographing someone in a public place, whether or not they are considered a public persona, going about their daily business is an invasion of privacy in any way whatsoever. No personal information is included in the photograph, nothing that gives away any genuinely intimate details about the person that any passerby could not glean at a glance. Using this sort of image in an advertising context without expressed permission would be unacceptable, but in an editorial or artisitic context I find the idea that it should be illegal to publish without some sort of contract in place to be entirely batty. The entire body of work produced by Henry Cartier Bresson would likely be illegal if this was the case. Ditto the work of Garry Winogrand, Alex Webb, Mitch Epstein, David Alan Harvey, Raghubir Singh. (I could continue listing names for an entire page.) A great deal of photography since the invention of the Leica would not have been created legally. It may not be polite to engage your subject in certain situations, but it is a dangerous dangerous thing to be legislating politeness.

I accept that there may be some public situations or subject matter (such as described above involving mobile phone cameras and skirts) which are exception to this and would constitute an unreasonable intrusion into someone's privacy, however.

Then consider the fact that this entire discussion wouldn't even be happening if the photo was made in a third world country where there is no money and therefore no interest in pursuing such cases. If we find it acceptable to photograph the downtrodden without gaining permission shouldn't we also be subject to that attitude?
 
Respectfully, the questions is one of balancing rights.

The notion of the First Amendment and the freedom of expression that it grants grants the photographer some considerable rights that may be asserted regardless of the views of a majority or consensus of people. In determining the boundries for photographers, this right is balanced against other rights.

As I understand it, for photographers, the right of freedom of expression extents to making photographs in public places that feature or include people. Why, because we value freedom of expression and, in public, there is no reasonable expectation of privacy so nothing counterbalances the right of free expression. Thus, this right has extended to all editorial and artistic ventures, even gallery hangings or books from which the artist profits.

This right is balanced differently when the image is used commercially because we do not permit a photographer or art editor or commercial department to suggest that a person in an image intends to sell a product or be seen to endorse a product. This is where you need permission and, if you fail, you are subject to suit and may be paying some involuntary royalties.

We also draw the line at depicting a person in a "false light" - or when the photographer invades the sphere that is recognized as "private" like the upskirting example or the surrepticious photos taken of people behind the walls of their homes, etc.

So much of what we do involves balance. Unless the plaintiff in that suit has some strong interest to assert that has was not identified in the article, my wager is on the defendant.

Alan
 
I agree that the discussion is where the law is going, and I maintain that it is going in a bad direction. Putting myself in the shoes of the subject, I do not mind be photographed in a public space (or any other space for that matter). When I am in public I expect no privacy. For me that is the very nature of the space, and it's beauty.

What isn't being discussed is what is the nature of privacy, and here is where I am sure I am in the minority viewpoint. Where does the self end and what bearing does that have on privacy, and indirectly on ownership? Do you have any right to the light that reflects off your body (itself only part of the greater self) and is fixed on a CCD, photographic emulsion or canvas? By extension, does the creator of a billboard have a right to say when and how that billboard can be photographed? What about someone's dog? Ultimately once you start going down the path of attempting to control all possible uses of an item (be it a pet, an inanimate object, or your own body) you will eventually end up requiring permission for virtually all photographic acts. I for one would like to see a world where all acts are permissible by default and not permissible only when specifically expressed otherwise.

This also leads to what is the definition of a newsworthy subject. Frankly, portraits of the average person walking through Times Square shed far more light onto the news of the times than one thousand photos of celebrities. People going about their lives are worth reporting on. They are the ordinary that gets left behind in history in favor of the extraordinary.
 
Alan, very well stated.

ABarGrill said:
Respectfully, the questions is one of balancing rights.

The notion of the First Amendment and the freedom of expression that it grants grants the photographer some considerable rights that may be asserted regardless of the views of a majority or consensus of people. In determining the boundries for photographers, this right is balanced against other rights.

As I understand it, for photographers, the right of freedom of expression extents to making photographs in public places that feature or include people. Why, because we value freedom of expression and, in public, there is no reasonable expectation of privacy so nothing counterbalances the right of free expression. Thus, this right has extended to all editorial and artistic ventures, even gallery hangings or books from which the artist profits.

This right is balanced differently when the image is used commercially because we do not permit a photographer or art editor or commercial department to suggest that a person in an image intends to sell a product or be seen to endorse a product. This is where you need permission and, if you fail, you are subject to suit and may be paying some involuntary royalties.

We also draw the line at depicting a person in a "false light" - or when the photographer invades the sphere that is recognized as "private" like the upskirting example or the surrepticious photos taken of people behind the walls of their homes, etc.

So much of what we do involves balance. Unless the plaintiff in that suit has some strong interest to assert that has was not identified in the article, my wager is on the defendant.

Alan
 
Brain, was the released you signed for your daughter and you signed as her guardian? Or did you sign a separate one for yourself as well? Children are a sensitive area and the photographer was being cautious. I don't believe he was under any legal requirement to get a release as the use was editorial.

Brian Sweeney said:
It will be an interesting case. As the photograph of the individual is being sold on its own, it will be hard to argue that the photograph was just of a public place and the subject just happened to be in the picture. The photographer wanted portraits of individuals, not of the public surrounding. I suspect a professional photographer would have attained a signed model release. Nikki has been in the local paper twice, swinging at the playground. I was asked to sign the release for her and for myself, as were the parents of other kids. Public place, playing in the summer, professional photographer.
 
Matt,

I agree with your preferred approach: the default should be that the photographer is free to photograph in public unless the law (backed by a compelling reason) says otherwise. That seems pretty close to the way the law is/was, as I understand it. I don't understand the copyright claims that building owners sometimes say they can assert for exteriors, for example.

Alan
 
I think this whole thing is a little absurd. If you think about it, the question really revolves around private vs. public existence. Can you expect privacy in public? That doesn't even make sense. Look up the definitions. If you go out in public, you must put up with other people sharing your space. I don't know anything about the law, but my own sense of morality would
say "Do what you want as long as you don't hurt someone else". I don't think taking a picture of someone is hurting them. Some might be slightly annoyed by it but, come on. I might be annoyed by someone on the bus who hasn't bathed, but I'm not going to try to sue them.
 
You're right, permission by default is pretty much the way the law is for editorial/fine art images, but I get alarmed that more and more people would like it otherwise. Some for reasons of privacy, some because they'd like you to pay them.

It's interesting that on this photography forum the discussion is fairly balanced with supporters of both sides of the issue, but in the comments on the original post that I forwarded, nearly everyone is in support of the photographer.

ABarGrill said:
Matt,

I agree with your preferred approach: the default should be that the photographer is free to photograph in public unless the law (backed by a compelling reason) says otherwise. That seems pretty close to the way the law is/was, as I understand it. I don't understand the copyright claims that building owners sometimes say they can assert for exteriors, for example.

Alan
 
Matthew said:
I entirely disagree with the notion that photographing someone in a public place, whether or not they are considered a public persona, going about their daily business is an invasion of privacy in any way whatsoever. No personal information is included in the photograph, nothing that gives away any genuinely intimate details about the person that any passerby could not glean at a glance. Using this sort of image in an advertising context without expressed permission would be unacceptable, but in an editorial or artisitic context I find the idea that it should be illegal to publish without some sort of contract in place to be entirely batty. The entire body of work produced by Henry Cartier Bresson would likely be illegal if this was the case. Ditto the work of Garry Winogrand, Alex Webb, Mitch Epstein, David Alan Harvey, Raghubir Singh. (I could continue listing names for an entire page.) A great deal of photography since the invention of the Leica would not have been created legally. It may not be polite to engage your subject in certain situations, but it is a dangerous dangerous thing to be legislating politeness.

The times are much different than when Bresson was doing his thing. People today are becoming aware that all aspects of their lives being tracked by government and business and digital phone cams and they are beginning to fight back. I don't blame them.

The idea that an individual gives up all right to privacy just because he or she steps out of their house takes "artistic license" too far, in my opinion. A person should have a reasonable expectation of privacy even in public, as long as they don't go out of their way to call attention to themselves. Photographers like to talk about their "rights." There's an old saying that one person's rights end at the tip of another person's nose (or something like that). Some cultures believe a photograph steals part of a person's soul -- and maybe that's true in some respects.

Most stores and malls don't allow photographs without permission but they are essentially "public places" because anyone can go there.

The key here , however. is MONEY. There's a big difference between shooting a picture of someone you don't know for your own personal viewing and selling that photo in a gallery or for publication. When the photo becomes commercial, the subject should share in the proceeds in one form or another unless they have signed a release. Without them there wouldn't be a picture to sell.

Hey, let's not get too carried away with the importance of our particular passion.
 
Wayne:

The Supreme Court has held that shopping centers are "private" property. Hence, they get to set the rules regarding what photographers can and cannot do and enforce them through the trespass laws.

I must confess that I do have a hard time understanding how the actions of a person in full view of others are "private." If this is not public, what is?

Alan
 
If you are concerned about the government monitoring you, then fight against that (it's a very worthy fight) not against artists.

To believe that a photograph steals your soul you have to first believe that the soul a) exists and b) can be stolen by something in the material realm. I am willing to concede the first part but find the second hard to believe.

As Alan has written, malls are in no way public space. In this they are insidious in that they can ban whatever activity they like but in some places are the primary place of "public" interaction. A mall in England has banned people wearing hoodies because people feel intimidated by people who wear them.

You are right that money is the issue but you are wrong in that a photographer simply making money off an image makes the use commercial (at least in the view of the law).

I admit I get worked up about this sort of thing, and there is more to the world than photography, but the attitudes and issues expressed in cases like this have bearing upon much more in society than our mutual artistic passion.

kiev4a said:
The times are much different than when Bresson was doing his thing. People today are becoming aware that all aspects of their lives being tracked by government and business and digital phone cams and they are beginning to fight back. I don't blame them.

The idea that an individual gives up all right to privacy just because he or she steps out of their house takes "artistic license" too far, in my opinion. A person should have a reasonable expectation of privacy even in public, as long as they don't go out of their way to call attention to themselves. Photographers like to talk about their "rights." There's an old saying that one person's rights end at the tip of another person's nose (or something like that). Some cultures believe a photograph steals part of a person's soul -- and maybe that's true in some respects.

Most stores and malls don't allow photographs without permission but they are essentially "public places" because anyone can go there.

The key here , however. is MONEY. There's a big difference between shooting a picture of someone you don't know for your own personal viewing and selling that photo in a gallery or for publication. When the photo becomes commercial, the subject should share in the proceeds in one form or another unless they have signed a release. Without them there wouldn't be a picture to sell.

Hey, let's not get too carried away with the importance of our particular passion.
😀 😉
 
I, but the attitudes and issues expressed in cases like this have bearing upon much more in society than our mutual artistic passion.

Which is exactly why individual privacy will continue to grow in importance.
 
Matthew said:
..... A mall in England has banned people wearing hoodies because people feel intimidated by people who wear them.
Happily the hoody debate was put into context by a school boy that pointed out that the "campaign" against hoodies applied to his teachers more than his classmates. He went to a Monastery school where all the teachers dressed in "hoodies" 😀

In the UK for the moment a public place is both in the street and any place that can be seen from the street. So if I walk around some places over here and I for some strange reason want to shoot hookers who are in their front rooms, then that is deemed public.

In the case of shops, shopping centers and places where payment is required for entry then those are not public places. Technically when I shoot inside pubs as with the last picture I posted I should have had permission from the publican to take any shots. I didn't have permission but the publican didn't object to me pointing my camera in various directions so I took that as implied consent 😉
 
Its exposing private moments to a larger public...

Its exposing private moments to a larger public...

No one is suggesting, as far as I know, that you should not be able to take the picture. Its a question of whether you should be entitled to publish the photo in a way that exposes the person to the view of the larger public.

If you publish on a website where the photo is one among millions (Flickr), that's one thing.

On the cover of a mass circulation magazine, on the other hand? Are you not willing to concede the possibility that such exposure could be very disturbing to people?

I have little sympathy for the person who objects and threatens litigation because their picture is on your Flickr site without consent. But on the cover of People or the local daily newspaper? I'd say they have a legitimate beef about your publishing their photo without consent.


ABarGrill said:
Wayne:

The Supreme Court has held that shopping centers are "private" property. Hence, they get to set the rules regarding what photographers can and cannot do and enforce them through the trespass laws.

I must confess that I do have a hard time understanding how the actions of a person in full view of others are "private." If this is not public, what is?

Alan
 
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