Photographers are now able to use "Exposure" in place of Cash
- Thread starter Darthfeeble
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Timmy,
YES, because if you won't work for something you believe in, what sort of person are you?
Surprisingly often, pro bono work does attract other work. But even when it doesn't, as long as you can afford to do it, doesn't the "exposure" (for the cause, not for you) fell better than a few more dollars?
Cheers,
R.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
Not anymore. When I was young, I did several times and I deeply regret it. EVERY time, the people I did the work for treated me like dirt, nitpicking the images, complaining about everything. I started to not only charge nonprofits for my work ,I charge them DOUBLE my normal rates because I know they'll be assholes to work for. I rarely work for nonprofits or social causes anymore, but when I do, they pay the high rates I quote and, interestingly enough, they always love the work and never treat me like a slave anymore.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Thank'ee kindly!
Nigel (the editor, for those who don't take Amateur Photographer -- you should) recently reminded me that I am a "Marmite" contributor: people either love me or hate me.
Further note for non-British contributors: Marmite is a yeast based spread (similar to Vegemite, for Australian readers) that is supposed to polarize opinions strongly: love it or hate it. No one, they say, is indifferent. Actually, I am. I quite like it but if I never had it again I wouldn't be worried. I can't remember when I last had any.
Neither Frances nor I can think of an American equivalent. There are (we believe) yeast extracts, but they are not love-it-or-hate-it cultural icons like Marmite or Vegemite. Some people may love peanut butter but it's pretty bland stuff and there can't be many who care enough to hate it.
Cheers,
R.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Chris,
Interesting. I've never had the experience of being "treated like dirt", whether by the Tibetan Government in Exile, a local bicycle charity in Bristol or the commune here. In fact, the exact opposite.
Question: did you volunteer to work for them, because you were already involved and knew the people in question, or did they initiate things? Always the former for me. People you already know don't treat you like dirt.
Cheers,
R.
Darthfeeble
But you can call me Steve
There's just an awful big difference between me coming to you and volunteering to shoot your cause for free and you coming to me and wanting your event shot and offering only "Exposure". Perhaps one reason it's tough to make a decent living at photography is too many folks giving away the farm.
Pioneer
Veteran
Of course, but I think that is an entirely different thing. I do not do that with the expressed intent of gathering more business or to improve my standing within my own professional group. I do it to support my community, not to make money.
What we were discussing was working for someone else (company or individual) for free with the belief that it would provide additional paying work, doing the same thing, down the road. Of course it is also assuming that the additional work will pay enough to make up for what you did for free.
Like I said, don't do that.
Now, if you are already an established photographer and writer, as you are Roger, and you decide that you can afford to do something out of the goodness of your heart, because you believe in the cause, then that is something different.
Bob Michaels
nobody special
Roger: I actually was specifically thinking of you and Frances as I was writing that so made sure I included enough qualifiers like "too many times" "often", and "everyone is different" to accommodate you and a few similar others.
codester80
A Touch of Light
Why is it only creatives get screwed by this "exposure" for cash scheme? It's not just photographers but writers, graphic artists, fine art artists, etc., that are asked to do stuff for free. I'd like to apply the same principle to doctors, lawyers, electricians, auto mechanics, retailers, etc. I think when they're just starting out they should provide their services for free. It would be great exposure and would lead to better paying jobs in the future and a step up in their chosen field. No? Didn't think so. Only fools give away their labour.
P.S- Non-profits is a misnomer. A lot of those organizations have bigger budgets than companies for profit, and non-profit staff sure don't work for free.
P.S- Non-profits is a misnomer. A lot of those organizations have bigger budgets than companies for profit, and non-profit staff sure don't work for free.
R
rpsawin
Guest
Here is Harlan Ellison's take on "For Profit" enterprises expecting talent to work for exposure:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE
Just another perspective...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE
Just another perspective...
MIkhail
Well-known
I donated many many hours of my free time (for my daughter's school and Sunday school publications, fliers, my work volunteering projects, soup kitchen, etc.) but the need always was in carefully made accurate boring portraits.
All my "freestyle" documentary type pictures (some of them I am proud of) are perceived by most as a failure to produce, again, carefully made well exposed boring portraits with everybody staring in camera and smiling. Then I said "that's enough of that waste of time, there are plenty of people besides me who can point and shoot the camera, if that's all that asked of me". And that was the end 🙂
All my "freestyle" documentary type pictures (some of them I am proud of) are perceived by most as a failure to produce, again, carefully made well exposed boring portraits with everybody staring in camera and smiling. Then I said "that's enough of that waste of time, there are plenty of people besides me who can point and shoot the camera, if that's all that asked of me". And that was the end 🙂
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Exactly. Among those for whom you will also work for free you could also include people you already know, who ask you to do something enjoyable to help them out. If it's not enjoyable, it makes sense either to say "no" or to do it for a while and then quit, cf. MIkhail's story. This also explains an awful lot of music photography and a lot of awful music photography. Many young photographers hang out with young musicians and take pics for nothing...
It's a very different matter from being approached by a stranger who wants you to work for nothing, purely for their benefit and for illusory "exposure". I wonder if one can get off-prints of the piece you linked, to hand to strangers who want you to work for nothing.
@Pioneer. I think the discussion had already moved on to "When I will work for free" (which most of us will, for the right person/cause), and that "I never work for free" had pretty much been discredited. Except in Chris's case.
@Bob. Fair enough. All I'd add is that a surprising number of the good photographers I know have chosen to earn less, and with greater uncertainty, than they could have done with your "90/10" approach. This is not the same as saying that if you are any good you WILL go for full-time: there are too many good photographers who do exactly what you say. But it can be curiously liberating to have to think only about photography, and to have the time and freedom to go where you want, when you want, whenever you can afford it.
Cheers,
R.
RMPoole
Established
I was about to mention that a friend of mine has asked me to take some photos of him for his website/CDs etc (young musician) after seeing some pictures I posted online and as I am an amateur I would not dream of charging him (young photographer). In this case though I'm getting experience in exchange for photos so we're both gaining. I suppose though you could say I will be taking work away from a pro.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Nah. Show me a young, broke photographer who has never taken free pictures of his young, broke musician friends and I'll show you someone who never had many friends.
Cheers,
R.
Dante_Stella
Rex canum cattorumque
The sheer fantasy (for most people) that there is a pot of gold at the end of an f/2.8 zoom is what keeps Nikon and Canon in business.
Dante
Dante
Corran
Well-known
I was very lucky. I bought a mid-range DSLR (with kit lens, of course) when I decided to rekindle my interest in photography (as a hobby). I just happened to photograph at a couple of events I was working at (audio technician) where the "hired" photographer didn't show up (!). My images were relatively crap, but, they actually existed since I showed up, so the group went on to hire me for further shows as the photographer. I learned, I improved, I realized I really enjoyed that genre of photography. I started to get noticed and other groups/people hired me. A couple years later and a significant part of my income comes from photography and photographic-related work.
I guess you would call that exposure.
I guess you would call that exposure.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
The story of a friend and some "Exposure":
Marie Muscat-King was a member of the local camera club, with an excellent eye and absolutely no technical knowledge. Frances and I taught her quite a lot, and in return, she let us use some of her pictures in some of our books. We never paid her -- couldn't afford to -- but over the course of a decade or so we did give her a few pieces of kit: a Sigma Apo zoom (80-200/2.8, if I recall), background stands, a few other things, including of course copies of the books her work appeared in, sometimes with a credit on the title page. I forget the exact details: it's around 20 years ago. Now see http://www.saatchiart.com/account/artworks/174887
Cheers,
R.
Marie Muscat-King was a member of the local camera club, with an excellent eye and absolutely no technical knowledge. Frances and I taught her quite a lot, and in return, she let us use some of her pictures in some of our books. We never paid her -- couldn't afford to -- but over the course of a decade or so we did give her a few pieces of kit: a Sigma Apo zoom (80-200/2.8, if I recall), background stands, a few other things, including of course copies of the books her work appeared in, sometimes with a credit on the title page. I forget the exact details: it's around 20 years ago. Now see http://www.saatchiart.com/account/artworks/174887
Cheers,
R.
RMPoole
Established
I'll have to get one of those zooms. That'll make me a better photographer!
OurManInTangier
An Undesirable
I've always wondered whether Plumbers, Electricians and Roofers do much pro bono work? Or is it just the artsy types that get asked?
Like most things in life I find one answer does not fit all situations. I've snorted in near utter derision after some requests and been delighted to have played a part in something rather special (usually small, but special to me nonetheless) at other times.
I would imagine that every so often those plumbers, electricians and roofers may just do the same...when the mood takes them or a cause touches them.
Like most things in life I find one answer does not fit all situations. I've snorted in near utter derision after some requests and been delighted to have played a part in something rather special (usually small, but special to me nonetheless) at other times.
I would imagine that every so often those plumbers, electricians and roofers may just do the same...when the mood takes them or a cause touches them.
Bill Clark
Veteran
What do people who get the free photography think of the images? I believe they think about as much as the recompense you get. And they come to expect the same fee every time they ask you. And when you don't respond with the same volunteer price, they just move on and, isn't it strange, how quickly they forget about you.
