Photographic Ethics: The "Weegee dilemma"

"If it was my family/friend in that car, I would have beat the crap out of any self-indulgent photographer that poked their lens in for their decisive moment at the expense of someone I know."

And I made that comment after this statement by you.

I wish I had seen the racist accusation. Would have liked to show my wife. She's Japanese Canadian. I was referring to the muscle-boundness characteristic of your avatar.

Some folks you feel brotherhood with, others you don't. You and I are very different, ywenz.
 
I think you did the right thing on not taking the picture. I'm sure some people don't have problems taking such pictures, but they should be prepaired for some hostile reactions. Especially if your not with the press.

Personally, I would had ran to the scene to offer any assistance. If my help wasn't needed, I'd leave the scene. There's no point in standing there if you're not helping.

P.S. ywenz.......really out of topic here but I worked on 50's movie (Get Rich or Die Tryin').
 
FrankS said:
"If it was my family/friend in that car, I would have beat the crap out of any self-indulgent photographer that poked their lens in for their decisive moment at the expense of someone I know."

And I made that comment after this statement by you.

I wish I had seen the racist accusation. Would have liked to show my wife. She's Japanese Canadian. I was referring to the muscle-boundness characteristic of your avatar

You don't need to be defensive. I didn't call you out straight up like Rafael implied. (Rafael: I'm glad you're not a reporter) I made an implicite accusation of institutionalized racism in what you said. Then I thought that you might be referring to the character that is $0.50 rather than his skin color. I decided to give you the benefit of doubt and hence erased what I said.

you and I lack of brotherhood? No tears are been shed here I guarantee.
 
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ywenz.........FrankS........don't be like that. I don't know any of you personally, but I'm sure each of you are good people. This is just a discussion on a thread. 🙂

Unless you guys are just messing around then disregard this. 😱
 
Rafael said:
It is fine to be disgusted by it. But there are appropriate and inappropriate means of expressing your disgust.
...

QUOTE]

I don't understand this at all. Everything in this thread has been OnTopic and expressed clearly and cleanly except this:

\/

FrankS said:
Ywenz, I think you are beginning to believe that you are your avatar.


What the heck, Frank? When I read that I immediately saw it as uncalled-for and troll-like. This was a decent thread with everyone making valid points. Thanks a lot for urinating on it and making it mess.


.
 
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ywenz said:
Okay don't take this personally, but where is the journalistic value of these pictures? Why does every photojournalist wanna be think every car accident they witness is news worthy? Were these "subpar at best" shots worth getting into a confrontation for? I'm pissed that I just wasted my time looking at them. I'm glad at least it wasn't a serious accident...

ywenz, I don't take it personally. You're entitled to your opinions. But your comments are more than a little belligerent, and not in keeping with the generally friendly nature of RFF. If you're "pissed" that you "wasted your time" looking at a couple of 40K jpegs for a few seconds, what are you doing on the Internet? 😉

I posted the pictures as an example of the issue being discussed, along with what I believed was some reasonably thoughtful commentary.

I have probably seen the aftermath of several hundred of auto accidents in my life, and actually witnessed a few. This was the first one I actually photographed. I took pictures for three reasons:

1. Once I got past "Thank God no one was hurt," I found the situation of a bus stop being wrecked by a VW bus humorous. So did the photo editor of one of our daily papers, so I wasn't that far off.

2. The accident site is at a fork in a major arterial. My employer's previous building is triangular, and divides the two streets that diverge from the fork. There had been numerous near misses where someone thought they wanted to go one way, then changed their mind and swerved at the last minute. At 45 mph or more.

If someone hit the point of the building's "triangle" dead center, their vehicle would have ended up going through glass and could have killed or severly injured the occupant of the corner office, a very nice woman I happen to like. I had been helping her with a computer problem that very morning, so I had an "I could have been there" feeling. I thought that if a picture of the accident were published, it might slow some people down, or help get a sign or a traffic light altered.

3. The pictures could be seen as humorous (as in "No, we didn't mean that kind of bus stop!"). So I thought they might get into the paper if it was a slow news day. Which would mean that I'd make a few dollars, and the picture editor of a major metropolitan daily would know my name. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. If that makes me a photojournalist wannabe, so be it.

The pictures are indeed not that great. They were Jpegs taken with a quickly borrowed 3-megapixel point-and-shoot. I didn't open up the shadows because the picture editor asked me for an unadjusted version. I did not wish to interfere with the police, traffic or the tow truck. I did the best I could under the circumstances. However, note that you did not see all the pictures I took--some show the driver, so I don't have them on my site.

I would not have gotten into a real confrontation with the driver. If he had continued to insist that I not take pictures, I would have backed off. However, I think that it is important, particularly in a post-9/11 world, not to immediately give in to everybody who thinks they can rewrite the law to suit themselves.

--Peter
 
What the heck, Frank? When I read that I immediately saw it as uncalled-for and troll-like. This was a decent thread with everyone making valid points. Thanks a lot for urinating on it and making it mess.

"If it was my family/friend in that car, I would have beat the crap out of any self-indulgent photographer that poked their lens in for their decisive moment at the expense of someone I know."


And I made the comment of ywenz beginning to believe he was his avatar after this statement by him.

If you want to call that troll-like and urinating on this thread, that's your opinion, but I don't share it. I thought, if you can take him at his word, that he was being a bit too vigilate-like, disregarding the laws against physical assault.

If you read the thread in its entirety, you will notice that some of his responses are somewhat provocative and not entirely benign. Here's an example, a response to one of ywenz's posts:

"ywenz, I don't take it personally. You're entitled to your opinions. But your comments are more than a little belligerent, and not in keeping with the generally friendly nature of RFF. If you're "pissed" that you "wasted your time" looking at a couple of 40K jpegs for a few seconds, what are you doing on the Internet? "
 
RayPA said:
Rafael said:
It is fine to be disgusted by it. But there are appropriate and inappropriate means of expressing your disgust.
...
QUOTE]
I don't understand this at all. Everything in this thread has been OT and expressed clearly and cleanly except this:
\/
What the heck, Frank? When I read that I immediately saw it as uncalled-for and troll-like. This was a decent thread with everyone making valid points. Thanks a lot for urinating on it and making it mess.
.


Having had a few minutes to let things sink in, don't you think YOUR reaction to this was a bit heavy-handed and over the top, Ray? I mean, if you are going to criticise me for being inflammatory, how would you characterise your reaction?
 
I don't have any problems with what ywenz said. I did not see the post he retracted so my comments aren't related to that one. It's an emotional subject. If it had been my loved one in the car and some random schmuck came up and started taking photos, I'd have felt like getting violent myself.

Is it OK for me to say so because I'm a girl and I look harmless in my avatar?

I think the long and short of it is that to obtain certain images that are powerful and moving, a photographer must be willing to take advantage of other people's suffering. Whether you choose to do this or not depends on what you can do and still look at yourself in the mirror in the morning. I personally would not feel comfortable making the choices that some of the photographers in this thread, and some professional photojournalists, would make, and that is part of the reason that I am not a professional journalist.
 
I posted previously:

a) I was once in such a situation, I had a camera with me, and I turned and walked away from the accident, and

b) I'm glad there are people who are able to deal with it and take photos of tragedy because that is an important job

(I'm thinking war zones and acts of genocide, not petty traffic accidents.)
 
ghost said:
let's not forget that there are supremely moral photographers out there photographing terrible events.

Yes, they're doing it for a real purpose. To show us horrors and unjust actions in parts of the world that we otherwise would never see. A routine car accident down the street from your house is hardly in the same category.

Any photog rushing to the scene to snap shots of the accident with the goal of fulfilling their own desire to live out the life of a photojournalist should receive a beat down by the affected parties of the accident. Or suffer an unfortunate slip n' fall incident whilst rushing towards the accident site, which unfortunately(or fortunately?) smashes their sentimental Leica gear
 
ywenz, we're fairly close to agreement on the issue of photographing petty accidents but I still have a huge issue with your attitude of beating people up (which is against the law) for taking pictures that they are legally entitled to, because you don't want them to. That's our dispute.
 
When I visited Amman (Jordan) the first time after leaving Iraq to the USA, I could not bring myself to take photos of the common people in the poor districts. I felt like someone who is betraying his own people [if I had taken photos]. So what if I could have taken some very special photos. Follow your guts feeling. Ethics are very important to me.

I hate seeing bitter discussions within a thread on photography. Let's calm down and move on.

Raid
 
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raid amin said:
When I visited Amman (Jordan) the first time after leaving Iraq to the USA, I could not bring myself to take photos of the common people in the poor districts. I felt like someone who is betraying his own people [if I had taken photos]. So what if I could have taken some very special photos. Follow your guts feeling. Ethics is very important to me.

Raid


Very interesting comment Raid. A lot of us here, myself included, feel that it is unethical to photograph the homeless or the poor without their consent or knowledge. Just out of interest, was your discomfort with photographing the people in the districts you visited generalised or was it limited to a feeling of discomfort with photographing them without their knowledge?
 
i don't think there's much of a difference between gawkers and the position ywenz, melaniec, and franks take. both stay detached...
 
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Rafael said:
Very interesting comment Raid. A lot of us here, myself included, feel that it is unethical to photograph the homeless or the poor without their consent or knowledge. Just out of interest, was your discomfort with photographing the people in the districts you visited generalised or was it limited to a feeling of discomfort with photographing them without their knowledge?


Rafael,

I felt bad about taking photos of simple people living a simple life. I did not even feel like asking any of the people in the local districts to take photos of them since I did not feel like being an intruder on their lives. At least that's howI felt about it. However, when I visited the ruin city Petra and I met some local Bedouins there, I made sure to politely request their permission before taking any photos of them. Even the female Bedoiuns allowed me to take one photo of each. They were used to seeing thousands of tourists each day.

Raid
 
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