dave lackey
Veteran
climbing_vine
Well-known
Hey, I wasn't making any comment on you. I wouldn't presume to know anyone's personal circumstances. I was commenting on another person's assertion that any idiot knows it's impossible to have a 2 and a 3 year old in a supermarket without two carts. That was pretty obvious, as I quoted him, not you.
I'm bowing out of this thread, it's altogether too sensitive...
aparat
Established
This is a very complex issue that is governed by both ethical and legal principles.
As a father of a four-year-old, I take pictures of my son frequently. If I find myself in a situation where my son is playing with other kids, I always make sure I have the parents' permission to include their children in the photograph. It is not legally required in Minnesota to do so, but I have established my own ethical code of conduct and always ask permission. Also, I make prints and send them to the parents (free of charge, of course) if they wish. Moreover, I believe that the parents' permission (and the kids' willingness) creates a much more comfortable picture taking experience and, therefore, helps make better photographs.
Finally, I strongly recommend the following book for an interesting discussion on the ethics of people photography:
Image Ethics: The Moral Rights Of Subjects In Photography, Film And Television, (Larry Gross, John Katz and Jay Ruby), New York: Oxford University Press, 1988.
As a father of a four-year-old, I take pictures of my son frequently. If I find myself in a situation where my son is playing with other kids, I always make sure I have the parents' permission to include their children in the photograph. It is not legally required in Minnesota to do so, but I have established my own ethical code of conduct and always ask permission. Also, I make prints and send them to the parents (free of charge, of course) if they wish. Moreover, I believe that the parents' permission (and the kids' willingness) creates a much more comfortable picture taking experience and, therefore, helps make better photographs.
Finally, I strongly recommend the following book for an interesting discussion on the ethics of people photography:
Image Ethics: The Moral Rights Of Subjects In Photography, Film And Television, (Larry Gross, John Katz and Jay Ruby), New York: Oxford University Press, 1988.
climbing_vine
Well-known
Criminal trespass for a paroled felon is not going to end up in 48 hours in lockup, unless he's sleeping with the judge.
And if the guy is unarmed and not in the process of committing a burglary or robbery, I don't know of any jurisdiction in the country where shooting him in your yard will be subject to a "I feared for my life" defense. That won't even fly in Texas.
climbing_vine
Well-known
Yeah, yeah. I raised my baby sister throughout my mother's mental illness, and continued once she finally walked out entirely. I get irked by blanket statements assuming that people don't know what it's like to deal with kids. Don't make blanket statements, and nobody will get peeved.
dave lackey
Veteran
Hey...sorry, I forgot my smilies!
I think everyone knows how tough those little munchkins are in the store.I'm with you...I'm outta here!
squirrel$$$bandit
Veteran
Ahhhh...Rangoon, luge, shaved balls...you're bringin' back memories there, memphis!
climbing_vine
Well-known
Hey, I've been there. We had a nice older couple living next door when I was a teenager, who brought their 17 year old nephew in to live with them from inner city Baltimore when his mother went up on her umpteenth crack possession conviction. The kid was a dealer, it turns out. Unfortunately the nice aunt and uncle couldn't turn him around, and one day he played russian roulette at my sister at the bus stop. It took the cops a month to get him out of there--while he threatened us the whole time--so in the meantime the oldest person home at any given time carried a .38 Browning on them.
But, it took so long because he was a juvenile with no convictions. It's different with a felon on parole (which I know from experience with yet another wonderful neighbor, though I do recognize that it varies by jurisdiction). There are just some lines that I don't think are crossable, and capping somebody who isn't truly an imminent threat is one of them. It's not just because of some high ideal.... it's dangerous. The looser that line gets, the closer we creep back to the standard that it's okay to drop anyone who steps foot on your property or looks at your wife wrong, which is just unacceptable... because it could easily be you or me on the receiving end. There's a real slippery slope here once you drop the standard below clear, imminent threat.
But now we're way off topic, so now I'm really done.
maddoc
... likes film again.
... prurient interest only to get votes (for whatever position or reason) in the own (rich) country. I don`t want to blame National Geographic only, all news magazines, worlwide, need to make money...
Sparrow
Veteran
You have the rule of law or you don’t it has to apply equally and universally to be sustainable.
It’s commonly accepted that hard cases make bad law and that is what you are attempting with this, you’re arguing that emotion trumps reason and I cannot agree to that.
It’s commonly accepted that hard cases make bad law and that is what you are attempting with this, you’re arguing that emotion trumps reason and I cannot agree to that.
Sparrow
Veteran
Were that to happen then I would be in the USA, and should I be "in fear for my life..." there would be other rights I could exercise as you pointed out earlier.
I don’t go out of my way to take photos of children, other than my own, but I don’t want to have to think about excluding them when they happen to be in the photo just because a section of society has a perverse understanding of the law.
If society changes it’s rules I’ll abide by them; but forgive me if I find beating your chest and screaming “I got’a gun” a joke; your firearm is more likely to harm your daughter than some random weirdo is
I don’t go out of my way to take photos of children, other than my own, but I don’t want to have to think about excluding them when they happen to be in the photo just because a section of society has a perverse understanding of the law.
If society changes it’s rules I’ll abide by them; but forgive me if I find beating your chest and screaming “I got’a gun” a joke; your firearm is more likely to harm your daughter than some random weirdo is
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
Bold 1: Absolutely true.What we're talking about here is reasonableness. If I am behaving in a way that I (and most people) would consider reasonable, how do we tell what a madman or paranoiac will find unreasonable? Do we proceed on the assumption that the rest of the world is mad or paranoid?
Bold 2: Would you really be so aggressive from the very start? If (let us say) your daughter were on a swing, laughing, hair flying, wouldn't that be a lovely picture for anyone to take? Let's imagine that I take that very picture. How would you approach me? Would you say, "You better have a good explanation for why you're shooting, or I'm gonna shove that camera up your butt" or would you say "Excuse me, why are you taking pictures of my daughter?"
And if I replied, "She's a pretty girl, really enjoying herself on that swing, and I think it would be a great picture" would that be acceptable or would it drive you to immediate assault?
Cheers,
Roger
Paul T.
Veteran
I think we've been here before, and we're not going to resolve this.
I have a 7 year old boy who's full of life, has been photographed many times by strangers, motly women, and I don't give a damn.
We have a collection of beautiful shots of kids playing in the projects in New Orleans that my girlfriend took with no hassles; if I happened to photograph a kid and her mum, and the husband cut up all rough, I would assume the lewd thoughts were in his mind. I can understand how this general obsession with perversion and violence has been stoked up, but I can't empathise with it.
I have a 7 year old boy who's full of life, has been photographed many times by strangers, motly women, and I don't give a damn.
We have a collection of beautiful shots of kids playing in the projects in New Orleans that my girlfriend took with no hassles; if I happened to photograph a kid and her mum, and the husband cut up all rough, I would assume the lewd thoughts were in his mind. I can understand how this general obsession with perversion and violence has been stoked up, but I can't empathise with it.
Livesteamer
Well-known
Kid photos have to be done with a little respect to all. I am lucky that I shoot about 8 or 10 rolls a month of infants and toddlers for our church. I've never had a problem with parents, never signed a release but the photos are only posted outside the childrens rooms at church. The parents love them and the M6 and 50mm Summilux asph at .7 meters is great for available light of cranky infants. The high speed toddlers are a little more of a challenge. Joe
Rick Waldroup
Well-known
The fear factor is now a huge business in the US and other countries, especially since 9/11. The have to keep us in fear, folks, to sell the latest weapons, to sell the latest security devices, to sell, sell, sell, sell......
These merchants of fear prey on the weak-minded and paranoid people in our society and by doing so, drag our basic human rights into the gutter.
I have raised two children and I am helping to raise 3 grandchildren. I never raised my kids with this attitude of fearing everyone and everything and I certainly do not intend to raise my grandchildren that way. I have taught them to always be aware and be cautious but never to fear life itself.
I do not own a gun and in fact, have never thought about getting one. Maybe it is just me and I have been lucky over the years, but I do not buy into this idea that there is a nut lurking around every corner or hiding in every bush.
So far, this has worked for me. My kids are normal, responsible adults and my grandchildren are sometimes inquisitive, sometimes shy, sometimes loud, sometimes unreasonable- in other words they act like kids. Why would I ever want to take that away from them by raising them with all of this uwanted and unwarranted fear?
These merchants of fear prey on the weak-minded and paranoid people in our society and by doing so, drag our basic human rights into the gutter.
I have raised two children and I am helping to raise 3 grandchildren. I never raised my kids with this attitude of fearing everyone and everything and I certainly do not intend to raise my grandchildren that way. I have taught them to always be aware and be cautious but never to fear life itself.
I do not own a gun and in fact, have never thought about getting one. Maybe it is just me and I have been lucky over the years, but I do not buy into this idea that there is a nut lurking around every corner or hiding in every bush.
So far, this has worked for me. My kids are normal, responsible adults and my grandchildren are sometimes inquisitive, sometimes shy, sometimes loud, sometimes unreasonable- in other words they act like kids. Why would I ever want to take that away from them by raising them with all of this uwanted and unwarranted fear?
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Hey! I did a pretty good job of describing that pic, sight unseen, didn't I?
I'd find that shot hard to resist. Maybe move a little to the right to reduce the impact of the soles of the shoes, and emphasize the face a little more, and lose the person bending over behind her (yes, I know it's a counsel of perfection, but hey, if your kids don't deserve perfection, who does?)
Bold: that's it, really. Present yourself properly and it should be OK. If it isn't... Well, call the police and see who they believe.
Cheers,
R.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Rick,
Absolutely! This is a classic example of, 'If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem'.
Bold 1: I do, inherited from my father-in-law. He was a champion pistol shot. Once, he was called for jury service in a murder trial (by shooting), and said, "I've been shooting for 60 years and never fired a gun in anger; I don't have too much sympathy with anyone who does." He was hastily excused jury duty. I first handled firearms maybe 45 years ago, and consequently feel much the same way: my training came from a sergeant-major on a range, not Hollywood, so I have a considerable respect for both the damage firearms can do and the simple truth that in trained hands, they are not a lot more dangerous than the person handling them.
Bold 2: Isn't it gratifying when kids act like kids, and not premature adults, or mindless and frightened babies, hiding behind their mothers' (and grandmothers') skirts all the time? Bloody infuriating sometimes, too, but without doubt better than the alternative.
Cheers,
Roger
Sparrow
Veteran
Or if you prefer anonymity use something with a slight shutter lag……………..my daughter should you be thinking of calling the cops
ps well said Rick
pps sorry about the faded Kodak whatever it was film
ps well said Rick
pps sorry about the faded Kodak whatever it was film
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bmattock
Veteran
The take-away here is this. Many feel that there are situations in which their own fear overrides law, or that it should.
We use words like 'courteous', 'reasonable', and 'decency' to describe the grace with which a photographer should willingly surrender their rights in favor of a parent's fear, but the end result is the same - the photographer should surrender their rights because the parent feels uncomfortable about the exercise of the freedom of expression rights in the presence of the parent's child.
That is, in my opinion, an unreasonable request. We talk about being rude in this thread - that to me is the first rude behavior taking place in our hypothetical scenario.
We use words like 'courteous', 'reasonable', and 'decency' to describe the grace with which a photographer should willingly surrender their rights in favor of a parent's fear, but the end result is the same - the photographer should surrender their rights because the parent feels uncomfortable about the exercise of the freedom of expression rights in the presence of the parent's child.
That is, in my opinion, an unreasonable request. We talk about being rude in this thread - that to me is the first rude behavior taking place in our hypothetical scenario.
Rick Waldroup
Well-known
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