I would like to thank Huck Finn for a really fun day at the PhotoPlus Expo in NYC today. We met and drove into the city this morning to take in the show, and then went on a quick side trip to B&H (very impressive operation to see live and in person).
So what did we see? Um, everything really. Of specific interest we had an opportunity to handle the Epson RD-1, Leica MP and Zeiss Ikon cameras. Wow, all three were impressive, where should I start?
The RD-1 is a dead ringer of a Bessa R2, on steroids. Just a little longer, wider and taller, but the same camera for sure (I had my R2 with me to compare). My impression is that it is exactly what they say it is, a digital camera with the traditional manual camera feel. All the controls are logically layed out and easily read. We didn't ask, but I don't think there are menues that drive any of the options. White balance, image quality, and battery level readouts are easily viewed on the camera's "tachometer" which you surely have seen in pictures. For all three cameras, I will make the comment that I believe the shutter is quieter than the R2's. They had a number of sample prints from images taken with the RD-1. They were 8x10s mostly taken at ISO 200, and were very crisp. Definately a nice machine. The working demo we played with was wearing a nice Leica Tri-Elmar. Available in the US in November, MSRP of $2,999 from B&H, Camulet and Samys. The Epson rep did mention to expect some sort of discount to get to the retail price, but didn't know how much of one. He also said that they are geared for and are stocking to a predicted manufacturing run, but perhaps thinking hopefully, mentioned that there may be backorders on this item based on demand.
What next, as expected the Leica MP is a wonderful machine. #1 hands down if you were going to take $ out of the equation, but we all know that. Leica is running a promotion offering a free accessory item with a value up to $300 with the purchase of a new MP or M7. To be very honest with you, we really didn't spend much time with the Leica folks.
Perhaps we were worn out from visiting with the fine folks from Hasselblad for 30 minutes or so, where we spent time with the Zeiss Ikon, serial number 0000003. This was a not fully operational demo, the same that was at Photokina a couple weeks ago. The shutter was operational, but meter and AE system were not. Well, this is a very nice camera. Build quality I would say it is equal to a much refined R2. It was not rock solid like the MP, but it is nicer than the R2. There appear to be a number of components which look like those on the R2 (inside the film compartment) but refined. The Hasselblad Rep did indicate that a number of little details are still in proto-type style and may be changed in the final camera. The rear door latch being one of those little details. The viewfinder and rangefinder though were excellent. Big, bright and crisply focused the ZM 50/2. In fact I would say that focusing was easier and clearer on ZI with 50/2 than the MP .72 was with the new aspherical 50/1.4 (note the faster lens on the Leica). All frame lines 28 and up were visible to me with my glasses on. This is a great viewfinder/rangefinder on the ZI. Again, the shutter seemed quiter than the R2's, to my ear it sounded less metallic. Now, lets talk about the ZM lenses. I can't wait to see some reviews and results from these. The build quality of these gems is as good as Leica, though much lighter overall. Huck asked about the quality control Zeiss had over the Cosina lens plant in Japan for these lenses and it may be best to wait for him to add some comments about the answer he got. I was satisfied though that these clearly will be "Zeiss Quality" lenses. Ergonomicly I felt they were excellent. The tab on the focus ring was less of a tab or nob and more of a curve or bump machined onto the ring. Sexy!!! I was interested in the size of the 35/2, which is clearly larger than the 35/2 Summicron. The ZM 50/2, ZM 35/2, Summicron 50/2 and CV 35/1.7 are all roughly the same size. Huck's chrome Summicron was clearly the heaviest lens in this comparison. The ZM 85 is a big can of soup. Hasselblad expects to begin shipping the lenses from Sweden by the end of November. The Hasselblad rep indicated that pricing has not been set yet, but he did quote the price target of a 40% discount off Leica prices which we heard before. He also added that the lens may be priced a little less due to the high efficiencies in the Cosina lens manufacturing process.
So, what was the star of the show? For me it was the Polaroid 20x24 Land Camera. Oh my god is all that I can say. 5 of these beasts were built for Polaroid in the 1970s, one is now housed in a studio in Soho. They are used for miscellanious promotional purposes by the corporation (they are planning a NYC street portrait trip for it), and this one can be rented along with all the lighting equipment, supplies and a very nice technician to make it work. While we were talking to the Polaroid folks about this camera they decided to set it up and shot a portrait of the lovely model sitting with them. It was a very impressive, I wish the lighting was better so we could see the image on the frensel screen. And the results, well it is more or less a life size contact print. Remarkable quality, I really enjoyed seeing this camera and watching the picture taking process with it. Are you interested in one? I will remember for sure, but I think Badger Graphic is making a 20x24 model similar to the Polaroid Land one.
Reporting for RFF...
So what did we see? Um, everything really. Of specific interest we had an opportunity to handle the Epson RD-1, Leica MP and Zeiss Ikon cameras. Wow, all three were impressive, where should I start?
The RD-1 is a dead ringer of a Bessa R2, on steroids. Just a little longer, wider and taller, but the same camera for sure (I had my R2 with me to compare). My impression is that it is exactly what they say it is, a digital camera with the traditional manual camera feel. All the controls are logically layed out and easily read. We didn't ask, but I don't think there are menues that drive any of the options. White balance, image quality, and battery level readouts are easily viewed on the camera's "tachometer" which you surely have seen in pictures. For all three cameras, I will make the comment that I believe the shutter is quieter than the R2's. They had a number of sample prints from images taken with the RD-1. They were 8x10s mostly taken at ISO 200, and were very crisp. Definately a nice machine. The working demo we played with was wearing a nice Leica Tri-Elmar. Available in the US in November, MSRP of $2,999 from B&H, Camulet and Samys. The Epson rep did mention to expect some sort of discount to get to the retail price, but didn't know how much of one. He also said that they are geared for and are stocking to a predicted manufacturing run, but perhaps thinking hopefully, mentioned that there may be backorders on this item based on demand.
What next, as expected the Leica MP is a wonderful machine. #1 hands down if you were going to take $ out of the equation, but we all know that. Leica is running a promotion offering a free accessory item with a value up to $300 with the purchase of a new MP or M7. To be very honest with you, we really didn't spend much time with the Leica folks.
Perhaps we were worn out from visiting with the fine folks from Hasselblad for 30 minutes or so, where we spent time with the Zeiss Ikon, serial number 0000003. This was a not fully operational demo, the same that was at Photokina a couple weeks ago. The shutter was operational, but meter and AE system were not. Well, this is a very nice camera. Build quality I would say it is equal to a much refined R2. It was not rock solid like the MP, but it is nicer than the R2. There appear to be a number of components which look like those on the R2 (inside the film compartment) but refined. The Hasselblad Rep did indicate that a number of little details are still in proto-type style and may be changed in the final camera. The rear door latch being one of those little details. The viewfinder and rangefinder though were excellent. Big, bright and crisply focused the ZM 50/2. In fact I would say that focusing was easier and clearer on ZI with 50/2 than the MP .72 was with the new aspherical 50/1.4 (note the faster lens on the Leica). All frame lines 28 and up were visible to me with my glasses on. This is a great viewfinder/rangefinder on the ZI. Again, the shutter seemed quiter than the R2's, to my ear it sounded less metallic. Now, lets talk about the ZM lenses. I can't wait to see some reviews and results from these. The build quality of these gems is as good as Leica, though much lighter overall. Huck asked about the quality control Zeiss had over the Cosina lens plant in Japan for these lenses and it may be best to wait for him to add some comments about the answer he got. I was satisfied though that these clearly will be "Zeiss Quality" lenses. Ergonomicly I felt they were excellent. The tab on the focus ring was less of a tab or nob and more of a curve or bump machined onto the ring. Sexy!!! I was interested in the size of the 35/2, which is clearly larger than the 35/2 Summicron. The ZM 50/2, ZM 35/2, Summicron 50/2 and CV 35/1.7 are all roughly the same size. Huck's chrome Summicron was clearly the heaviest lens in this comparison. The ZM 85 is a big can of soup. Hasselblad expects to begin shipping the lenses from Sweden by the end of November. The Hasselblad rep indicated that pricing has not been set yet, but he did quote the price target of a 40% discount off Leica prices which we heard before. He also added that the lens may be priced a little less due to the high efficiencies in the Cosina lens manufacturing process.
So, what was the star of the show? For me it was the Polaroid 20x24 Land Camera. Oh my god is all that I can say. 5 of these beasts were built for Polaroid in the 1970s, one is now housed in a studio in Soho. They are used for miscellanious promotional purposes by the corporation (they are planning a NYC street portrait trip for it), and this one can be rented along with all the lighting equipment, supplies and a very nice technician to make it work. While we were talking to the Polaroid folks about this camera they decided to set it up and shot a portrait of the lovely model sitting with them. It was a very impressive, I wish the lighting was better so we could see the image on the frensel screen. And the results, well it is more or less a life size contact print. Remarkable quality, I really enjoyed seeing this camera and watching the picture taking process with it. Are you interested in one? I will remember for sure, but I think Badger Graphic is making a 20x24 model similar to the Polaroid Land one.
Reporting for RFF...
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N
nwcanonman
Guest
Great report Rover,
BTW, while at B&H did you see them filling the film order I placed today? LOL
BTW, while at B&H did you see them filling the film order I placed today? LOL
back alley
IMAGES
sounds very cool rover!
i am so jealous, not only having the opportunity to see and fondle all that great equipment but to get together with another forum member.
i feel so isolated up here in the frozen north.
back to the equipment-
did you see the new cv cameras also?
and yes, thanks for taking the time to report your experiences.
joe
i am so jealous, not only having the opportunity to see and fondle all that great equipment but to get together with another forum member.
i feel so isolated up here in the frozen north.
back to the equipment-
did you see the new cv cameras also?
and yes, thanks for taking the time to report your experiences.
joe
Thanks for the cool report, rover!
You are welcome guys. Cosina did not have any public representation at the show. If they were there, they were behind closed doors. I think that there are some clues to the new CV cameras in the ZI. I assume they share the AE, metering, AE lock, shutter lock....
I hope the rear door latch is not the same. It wasn't bad, but not the best either leading to the comments by the Hassey Rep that the camera on display was a proto-type. I think they are really going to push the lenses, the body may just be a necessity for them.
I hope the rear door latch is not the same. It wasn't bad, but not the best either leading to the comments by the Hassey Rep that the camera on display was a proto-type. I think they are really going to push the lenses, the body may just be a necessity for them.
bmattock
Veteran
That giant Polaroid is something else...
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There she is.
The technician/photographer from the Soho gallery is cuter though.
Bill, it this the Polaroid camera that they use to do art reproductions? I forgot to ask and something is telling me that they actually have a bigger camera too.
http://www.polaroid.com/studio/20x24/
The technician/photographer from the Soho gallery is cuter though.
Bill, it this the Polaroid camera that they use to do art reproductions? I forgot to ask and something is telling me that they actually have a bigger camera too.
http://www.polaroid.com/studio/20x24/
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Designer
Keven
Thanks for the report! Rover.
bmattock
Veteran
rover said:There she is.
The technician/photographer from the Soho gallery is cuter though.
Bill, it this the Polaroid camera that they use to do art reproductions? I forgot to ask and something is telling me that they actually have a bigger camera too.
http://www.polaroid.com/studio/20x24/
I took the photo in Albuquerque, NM last year (or 2 years ago?) at the Large Format Photo Conference put on by View Camera Magazine.
The gentleman pictured was, I believe, visiting from San Francisco. He did portraits at $75 a throw. I *should* have gone and gotten my wife and had us both sit - the prints were amazing, as you saw. I regret passing on that opportunity.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
Huck Finn
Well-known
Sorry for the delay in contributing to this thread.
It was a pleasure to spend the day with Rover in The Big Apple! As you can see by his well written post he is quite a bright guy as well as being knowledgable about cameras & photography. I don't know how he remembered all those facts. Honest, I never once saw him take notes. We learned that we are both Yankee fans as well as camera buffs & so were able to comiserate about their ignominious defeat to the hated Boston Red Sox the night before. We were on the road by 6:00 a.m., which is amazing since we hadn't had a good night's sleep in a week after staying up late to watch baseball games.
To add to Rover's comment about Zeiss quality control, the rep from Sweden indicated that the same procedures are followed as have been used with Kyocera for the Contax G. These are described on the Zeiss website. Basically, Zeiss designs the lenses in Germany. Prototypes are built in Japan. These are then sent to Germany to be tested & inspected by Zeiss. Rarely, he said, are the initial examples found to be acceptable. These are then sent back to Japan for improvements & refinements. In the testing, MTF charts are measured on samples, which normally range from 3 - 10 prototypes. He stressed that this is unlike other companies who normally calculate the MTF charts from specs rather than actually measuring MTF results from actual lenses. This information is used to assist in meeting the specifications. When it comes to actually producing the lenses, Zeiss provides training & monitoring for quality control.
Two other things that he stressed about these lenses. The first is neutral color rendition. Lens designers are actually sent back to the drawing board if glass selection results in any alteration of true color. Second is that the camera/lens combination is designed to prevent any unintended focus shift when the aperture setting is changed after focus has been set. He said that such slight variations are known to happen even in the best cameras, but that Zeiss has worked to virtually eliminate that as an issue on this new camera. Finally, he stressed that these lenses are up to Zeiss standards or Zeiss would not put their name on them & Hasselblad would not distribute them.
A few other tidbits . . .
Zeiss is soliciting potential buyers to sign up for an initial limited production run of 1200 specially inscribed cameras. Astute observer that he is, Rover noticed that the form we were handed to sign up was #2700. LOL
BTW, don't expect a body/lens kit at reduced cost for the package. At least at the beginning, these will be sold separately. They seem to expect that substantial interest will come from people who want either body or lenses to fit into existing M-mount systems.
The warranty will be administered by Hasselblad. From the customer's point of view, the contract is with Hasselblad, although it is Zeiss who ultimately will back up the product & will guarantee parts from Cosina for their manufactured items.
While the price point for body & lenses is 40% less than Leica, the Hassy rep said that these price reductions cannot be expected for the 2 lenses that will be built by Zeiss in Germany - the 15 & the 85. He said that these are more expensive lenses to build form the outset & higher manufacturing costs in Germany will make the cost higher still. It sounds like they will be closer to Leica prices. He repeatedly said to expect the Zeiss Ikon body to come in at about $1500+ even though 60% of an M7 is closer to $1700. He said that 60% is a rough estimate & they hope it will be a little lower.
Hasselblad had the full Zeiss Ikon line, including body, lenses, lens hoods, & auxiliary viewfinders, which are excellent. (Diopters will also be available for eyeglass wearers.) However, the 15 & 85 mm lenses were just prototypes since these are not yet in production. The rep called these "dummy" lenses. I think that's because you look & feel like a dummy when you try to handle them & make a fool of yourself trying to turn focus & aperture collars that won't turn until you realize that they are not working prototypes. LOL
These new Zeiss M-mount lenses are clearly aimed at the Leica market. Nothing made this clearer than the fact that we saw vented hoods for the wide angle lenses when the location of the viewfinder makes venting completely unnecessary. However, when these same lenses are mounted on a Leica body, venting is necessary because the hoods do obstruct the viewfinder, which is not located as far to the extreme left of the body as on the ZI.
The shutter speed dial is the size of the one on the M7 & larger than the traditional one on the M6 or the MP. It seems to be easier to use without removing your eye from the viewfinder.
The Hasselblad rep was not able to explain why the ZI website shows a Planar design for the 85/2 "Sonnar." So much for small details.
I got a chance to see scanners from Epson, Konica-Minolta, Nikon, & MicroTek. It was interesting to hear the reps talk around some business-related items. The MicroTek rep, for example, could tell us that their scanners in the past sold under Polaroid & Agfa labels, but he cannot comment on any current or future arrangements due to non-disclosure agreements. In another case, a rep confirmed that there are problems in the Zeiss-Kyocera relationship, but there is "no official announcement" yet.
We each got a bunch of free rolls of film from Kodak. They almost paid for the trip. LOL Actually, Rover paid for parking & tolls. Waht a guy!
If you've ever wondered how B&H gets those low prices, it's because they are the largest camera store in the world & can negotiate high volume purchases. But ultimately, "it's the manufacturer's that tell us what we can charge."
Final thoughts on the Zeiss Ikon prices . . . "40% percent off Leica prices" seems to position this camera system exactly half way between Leica & Voigtlander. $500 for R2/3, $1500+ for ZI, $2500+ for Leica M7 & MP. CV lenses range $300 - $500 when equipped with an adaptor for RF coupled M-mount. Most ZI lenses should be $1000 - $1500. Of course, the 50/2 will be less (probably $700) & the 15 & 85 to be built in Germany probably in excess of $2000. Leica lenses in the range cover average roughly $2000 - $2500 - except, of course for the 50/2. So, Leica quality lenses for less - maybe even less than used Leica of the latest versions. If you can't see making the jump from CV to Leica, ZI will meet you half way between. We'll see in time if there is anyone there to meet them.
It was a pleasure to spend the day with Rover in The Big Apple! As you can see by his well written post he is quite a bright guy as well as being knowledgable about cameras & photography. I don't know how he remembered all those facts. Honest, I never once saw him take notes. We learned that we are both Yankee fans as well as camera buffs & so were able to comiserate about their ignominious defeat to the hated Boston Red Sox the night before. We were on the road by 6:00 a.m., which is amazing since we hadn't had a good night's sleep in a week after staying up late to watch baseball games.
To add to Rover's comment about Zeiss quality control, the rep from Sweden indicated that the same procedures are followed as have been used with Kyocera for the Contax G. These are described on the Zeiss website. Basically, Zeiss designs the lenses in Germany. Prototypes are built in Japan. These are then sent to Germany to be tested & inspected by Zeiss. Rarely, he said, are the initial examples found to be acceptable. These are then sent back to Japan for improvements & refinements. In the testing, MTF charts are measured on samples, which normally range from 3 - 10 prototypes. He stressed that this is unlike other companies who normally calculate the MTF charts from specs rather than actually measuring MTF results from actual lenses. This information is used to assist in meeting the specifications. When it comes to actually producing the lenses, Zeiss provides training & monitoring for quality control.
Two other things that he stressed about these lenses. The first is neutral color rendition. Lens designers are actually sent back to the drawing board if glass selection results in any alteration of true color. Second is that the camera/lens combination is designed to prevent any unintended focus shift when the aperture setting is changed after focus has been set. He said that such slight variations are known to happen even in the best cameras, but that Zeiss has worked to virtually eliminate that as an issue on this new camera. Finally, he stressed that these lenses are up to Zeiss standards or Zeiss would not put their name on them & Hasselblad would not distribute them.
A few other tidbits . . .
Zeiss is soliciting potential buyers to sign up for an initial limited production run of 1200 specially inscribed cameras. Astute observer that he is, Rover noticed that the form we were handed to sign up was #2700. LOL
BTW, don't expect a body/lens kit at reduced cost for the package. At least at the beginning, these will be sold separately. They seem to expect that substantial interest will come from people who want either body or lenses to fit into existing M-mount systems.
The warranty will be administered by Hasselblad. From the customer's point of view, the contract is with Hasselblad, although it is Zeiss who ultimately will back up the product & will guarantee parts from Cosina for their manufactured items.
While the price point for body & lenses is 40% less than Leica, the Hassy rep said that these price reductions cannot be expected for the 2 lenses that will be built by Zeiss in Germany - the 15 & the 85. He said that these are more expensive lenses to build form the outset & higher manufacturing costs in Germany will make the cost higher still. It sounds like they will be closer to Leica prices. He repeatedly said to expect the Zeiss Ikon body to come in at about $1500+ even though 60% of an M7 is closer to $1700. He said that 60% is a rough estimate & they hope it will be a little lower.
Hasselblad had the full Zeiss Ikon line, including body, lenses, lens hoods, & auxiliary viewfinders, which are excellent. (Diopters will also be available for eyeglass wearers.) However, the 15 & 85 mm lenses were just prototypes since these are not yet in production. The rep called these "dummy" lenses. I think that's because you look & feel like a dummy when you try to handle them & make a fool of yourself trying to turn focus & aperture collars that won't turn until you realize that they are not working prototypes. LOL
These new Zeiss M-mount lenses are clearly aimed at the Leica market. Nothing made this clearer than the fact that we saw vented hoods for the wide angle lenses when the location of the viewfinder makes venting completely unnecessary. However, when these same lenses are mounted on a Leica body, venting is necessary because the hoods do obstruct the viewfinder, which is not located as far to the extreme left of the body as on the ZI.
The shutter speed dial is the size of the one on the M7 & larger than the traditional one on the M6 or the MP. It seems to be easier to use without removing your eye from the viewfinder.
The Hasselblad rep was not able to explain why the ZI website shows a Planar design for the 85/2 "Sonnar." So much for small details.
I got a chance to see scanners from Epson, Konica-Minolta, Nikon, & MicroTek. It was interesting to hear the reps talk around some business-related items. The MicroTek rep, for example, could tell us that their scanners in the past sold under Polaroid & Agfa labels, but he cannot comment on any current or future arrangements due to non-disclosure agreements. In another case, a rep confirmed that there are problems in the Zeiss-Kyocera relationship, but there is "no official announcement" yet.
We each got a bunch of free rolls of film from Kodak. They almost paid for the trip. LOL Actually, Rover paid for parking & tolls. Waht a guy!
If you've ever wondered how B&H gets those low prices, it's because they are the largest camera store in the world & can negotiate high volume purchases. But ultimately, "it's the manufacturer's that tell us what we can charge."
Final thoughts on the Zeiss Ikon prices . . . "40% percent off Leica prices" seems to position this camera system exactly half way between Leica & Voigtlander. $500 for R2/3, $1500+ for ZI, $2500+ for Leica M7 & MP. CV lenses range $300 - $500 when equipped with an adaptor for RF coupled M-mount. Most ZI lenses should be $1000 - $1500. Of course, the 50/2 will be less (probably $700) & the 15 & 85 to be built in Germany probably in excess of $2000. Leica lenses in the range cover average roughly $2000 - $2500 - except, of course for the 50/2. So, Leica quality lenses for less - maybe even less than used Leica of the latest versions. If you can't see making the jump from CV to Leica, ZI will meet you half way between. We'll see in time if there is anyone there to meet them.
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back alley
IMAGES
great stuff huck!
you guys are like the rff reporting and detective team.
joe
you guys are like the rff reporting and detective team.
joe
Huck Finn
Well-known
Joe, wish you were there . . .
back alley
IMAGES
next time!
joe
joe
Huck Finn
Well-known
Be there or be square.
BTW, Leica folks said that prices will be going up again in January. At this rate, ZI prices will be half Leica's.
BTW, Leica folks said that prices will be going up again in January. At this rate, ZI prices will be half Leica's.
N
nwcanonman
Guest
Woodard and Bernstein have nothing on you two guys. thanks.
backalley photo said:
Huck is the detail guy, I spent a lot of time looking at all the models floating around. They were a very nice unexpected bonus at the show. Many manufacturers were offering seminars on the expo floor which were in fact live photo shoots. Alas, they were selling the digital process. The photographers were miked and as they shot, their photos popped up on large screens projected from their laptops where the talked about the benefits of their sponsors products.
Hasselblad, Imcon and a lighting company were one
Canon
Mamiya
Polaroid
Nikon was offering lectures on the floor
Huck Finn
Well-known
Rover knows cameras & photography! Yes, it was sad to see the extent to which digital has taken over the market. A Nikon rep described film SLRs as a niche market!
A detail I forgot to report . . . The Hasselblad rep confirmed that Cosina will be the ZI distributor in Japan. It will be interesting to see if B&H can get any of the black versions being built for the Japanese market & then make them available to the rest of us.
A detail I forgot to report . . . The Hasselblad rep confirmed that Cosina will be the ZI distributor in Japan. It will be interesting to see if B&H can get any of the black versions being built for the Japanese market & then make them available to the rest of us.