Don Parsons
Well-known
Sometime in '15-16, my son and I would like to go visit WWII battle sites in Europe. We're hoping to see Bovington, Duxford,abbey road 
, Normandy, Bastogne, Berlin, auschwitz and maybe Prague or Vienna.
I'm looking for trip advice, not gear advice. Places to stay, easiest. Forms of transport, what to see.
Have any European RFF's done similar visits? We'd need to go in June because he wants to see the Jagd Panther run in Bovington.
Here's your chance to help me plan our trip!
Many thanks, and as always, I'll post the pics here.
, Normandy, Bastogne, Berlin, auschwitz and maybe Prague or Vienna.I'm looking for trip advice, not gear advice. Places to stay, easiest. Forms of transport, what to see.
Have any European RFF's done similar visits? We'd need to go in June because he wants to see the Jagd Panther run in Bovington.
Here's your chance to help me plan our trip!
Many thanks, and as always, I'll post the pics here.
02Pilot
Malcontent
I've been to Normandy several times, including once escorting a British vet back for the first time in 57 years, so I can probably offer you a few ideas.
The first thing that would be helpful is some sort of timeframe. You've got an extensive itinerary planned that will require 6 or 7 days for travel, so I'm guessing you're not spending a lot of time in each place.
Ideally, I'd suggest 4 or 5 days in Normandy if you want to do it right. Bayeux is the ideal base camp - centrally located, easy in and out by car (you'll need a car), and a fair number of hotel and restaurant options. Two days for the beaches - one for Utah and Omaha, which are a bit of distance from each other, and one for Sword, Juno, and Gold. You can combine these with nearby points of interest, such as Pegasus Bridge, Ste.-Mere-Eglise, and the US cemetery at Colleville-sur-Mer. One day for Bayeux itself - there's a decent WW2 museum, and you really should take the time to see the tapestry and the cathedral. The remaining day or two can be used for things you might want to see that are further afield - distances are not great, but the only real highway runs east-west, so anything inland takes a bit of time. Some driving around through the small roads will give you an idea of just how difficult the bocage terrain really was.
If you want more specifics, just let me know.
The first thing that would be helpful is some sort of timeframe. You've got an extensive itinerary planned that will require 6 or 7 days for travel, so I'm guessing you're not spending a lot of time in each place.
Ideally, I'd suggest 4 or 5 days in Normandy if you want to do it right. Bayeux is the ideal base camp - centrally located, easy in and out by car (you'll need a car), and a fair number of hotel and restaurant options. Two days for the beaches - one for Utah and Omaha, which are a bit of distance from each other, and one for Sword, Juno, and Gold. You can combine these with nearby points of interest, such as Pegasus Bridge, Ste.-Mere-Eglise, and the US cemetery at Colleville-sur-Mer. One day for Bayeux itself - there's a decent WW2 museum, and you really should take the time to see the tapestry and the cathedral. The remaining day or two can be used for things you might want to see that are further afield - distances are not great, but the only real highway runs east-west, so anything inland takes a bit of time. Some driving around through the small roads will give you an idea of just how difficult the bocage terrain really was.
If you want more specifics, just let me know.
Griffin
Grampa's cameras user
On my list to see is still Oradour-sur-Glane, where the wreckage from a German retaliation has been left intact:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane
It's a couple hours driving from Normandy though.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane
It's a couple hours driving from Normandy though.
Addy101
Well-known
This doesn't sound like a visit to the battlefields of WWII. It seems you're looking at the western front and the Allied advance. There is more to the battle of Normandy then just the beaches.
What I'm missing is Operation Market Garden (aka a bridge too far), the failure of that operation made the Ardennes offensive (what you Americans call the battle of the bulge) possible.
Bergen-Belsen might be a better choice then Auschwitz because of location. Vienna and Prague are beautiful cities but why do you want to include them? They're not close to the other places you want to visit.
What I'm missing is Operation Market Garden (aka a bridge too far), the failure of that operation made the Ardennes offensive (what you Americans call the battle of the bulge) possible.
Bergen-Belsen might be a better choice then Auschwitz because of location. Vienna and Prague are beautiful cities but why do you want to include them? They're not close to the other places you want to visit.
btgc
Veteran
I hope you will not extend your experience w/ impressions of very recent events....probably previous year were better time for your trip.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Auschwitz is pretty weird. We found that it was something of a shrine for neo-Nazis. After the visit, go on a few miles and stay at Pszczyna.Sometime in '15-16, my son and I would like to go visit WWII battle sites in Europe. We're hoping to see Bovington, Duxford,abbey road
I'm looking for trip advice, not gear advice. Places to stay, easiest. Forms of transport, what to see.
Have any European RFF's done similar visits? We'd need to go in June because he wants to see the Jagd Panther run in Bovington.
Here's your chance to help me plan our trip!
Many thanks, and as always, I'll post the pics here.
As mentioned above, do not neglect Oradour s/Glane, http://www.oradour.info/ which may tell you more about the sheer irrationality of the Nazis than anything else.
Drive (hire car if need be).
Do not try to cover too much. Always look at local war memorials.
Cheers,
R.
doolittle
Well-known
I think Addy101 makes a good point - your itinerary features a lot travelling. Maybe concentrate on a smaller area. Lots of WW1 sites in the North-West area also if you are interested.
If you do want to visit Austria, and don't mind the extra travelling, maybe a stop off in Munich would be a good option. Dachau is just on the outskirts of the city. You could then head to Salzburg via Berchtesgaden (with a visit to Das Kehlsteinhaus/Eagles Nest.
Sprinkle in a few non-WWII activities too, it can get a bit depressing otherwise!
If you do want to visit Austria, and don't mind the extra travelling, maybe a stop off in Munich would be a good option. Dachau is just on the outskirts of the city. You could then head to Salzburg via Berchtesgaden (with a visit to Das Kehlsteinhaus/Eagles Nest.
Sprinkle in a few non-WWII activities too, it can get a bit depressing otherwise!
Bingley
Veteran
Prague is a beautiful city and the Jewish Quarter there has an outstanding museum divided among three old synagogues, as well as a Jewish cemetary that is worth visiting. The concentration camp at Theresianstadt (sp?) is about a 45 minute drive outside Prague and is also worth visitng. Together, tese sites will give you a powerful introduction into the Jewish community in Prague before the war and its fate at the hands of the Nazis.
Beyond that, Prague (unlike Vienna) was not heavily damaged during WWII. If you go to Vienna, you can see bullet holes along the exterior of St Stephen's Cathedral. To get a sense of the damage to the city, take a look at Orson Welles' film The Third Man, which included actual footage of the ruins in Vienna immediately after the war. You can go to the Belvedere Palace and ponder the fate of the Klimt paintings (and other paintings) that were looted by the Nazis and their Austrian sympathizers. Vienna today tends to play up its Hapsburg imperial past as well as pre-WWII literary and artistic movements, but if you've done your homework on the Anschluss and aftermath you'll be able to find sites of historical significance from the WWII era.
On travel, I've found that, compared to rail travel, it is often cheaper and quicker to fly from one European city to another. There's a fast and comfortable metrorail service from the Vienna Airport to downtown, and the subway system in Vienna is excellent. So is the subway in Prague, although the airport connection is not as convenient if I recall correctly (I was there in 2005).
Beyond that, Prague (unlike Vienna) was not heavily damaged during WWII. If you go to Vienna, you can see bullet holes along the exterior of St Stephen's Cathedral. To get a sense of the damage to the city, take a look at Orson Welles' film The Third Man, which included actual footage of the ruins in Vienna immediately after the war. You can go to the Belvedere Palace and ponder the fate of the Klimt paintings (and other paintings) that were looted by the Nazis and their Austrian sympathizers. Vienna today tends to play up its Hapsburg imperial past as well as pre-WWII literary and artistic movements, but if you've done your homework on the Anschluss and aftermath you'll be able to find sites of historical significance from the WWII era.
On travel, I've found that, compared to rail travel, it is often cheaper and quicker to fly from one European city to another. There's a fast and comfortable metrorail service from the Vienna Airport to downtown, and the subway system in Vienna is excellent. So is the subway in Prague, although the airport connection is not as convenient if I recall correctly (I was there in 2005).
Bingley
Veteran
If you do go to Vienna, and are looking for someplace comfortable and reasonable in price, I can recommend the Hotel Mariahilf on the Mariahilferstrasse, about half way between the Ringstrasse and the Westbanhof. It's located upstairs in a building just opposite a metro stop, so it's convenient to get around. It's written up in Rick Steves' guidebook. We stayed there in 2011, and would go back.
Of course, in Vienna, one must have a pastry at Demel, but some of the old coffee houses are also very atmospheric (even if the food is not that good). If you're visiting the Kunsthistorische Museum (and you should), there's a very nice cafe under the rotunda on the second floor. The street cars are very convenient and allow you to get around and see the sites at the same time.
In Prague, it's about the beer. There were some nice restaurants in 2005 when we were there and I expect more now. Many of the buildings have been cleaned of the grime from the communist era. You can channel Josef Koudelka from the top of Wenceslas Square, although that's not a WWII thing.
The downtown portions of both cities are very walkable, and quite a few shopping streets have been turned into pedestrian thoroughfares.
Of course, in Vienna, one must have a pastry at Demel, but some of the old coffee houses are also very atmospheric (even if the food is not that good). If you're visiting the Kunsthistorische Museum (and you should), there's a very nice cafe under the rotunda on the second floor. The street cars are very convenient and allow you to get around and see the sites at the same time.
In Prague, it's about the beer. There were some nice restaurants in 2005 when we were there and I expect more now. Many of the buildings have been cleaned of the grime from the communist era. You can channel Josef Koudelka from the top of Wenceslas Square, although that's not a WWII thing.
The downtown portions of both cities are very walkable, and quite a few shopping streets have been turned into pedestrian thoroughfares.
Don Parsons
Well-known
Thanks for all of your suggestions.
He wants to see the tank, I want to see the Spits and Hurri's @ Duxford.
We both want to see Omaha Beach and then pay our respects to the fallen.
He also wants to see Bastogne and Berlin. Prague or Vienna is a side, fun trip.
It's looking like we'll need a couple of weeks. Oradour-sur-Glane would be a must see too, thanks.
He wants to see the tank, I want to see the Spits and Hurri's @ Duxford.
We both want to see Omaha Beach and then pay our respects to the fallen.
He also wants to see Bastogne and Berlin. Prague or Vienna is a side, fun trip.
It's looking like we'll need a couple of weeks. Oradour-sur-Glane would be a must see too, thanks.
BillBingham2
Registered User
Anne Frank's house in Amsterdam.
Pick your choice of concentration or work camps.
One of the landing sights for D-Day.
IMHO not much to learn at most battle sights. You can learn more by looking at War College notes on a few battles.
The three I recommended will do more for their education about the world than battle fields (e.g. the Bulge).
Make the fun part of the trip getting to there.
You mileage will be long, but the fun will be epic, and the learning most important.
B2
Pick your choice of concentration or work camps.
One of the landing sights for D-Day.
IMHO not much to learn at most battle sights. You can learn more by looking at War College notes on a few battles.
The three I recommended will do more for their education about the world than battle fields (e.g. the Bulge).
Make the fun part of the trip getting to there.
You mileage will be long, but the fun will be epic, and the learning most important.
B2
Lucadomi
Well-known
In Italy there is also the American Cemetery in Nettuno.
marcr1230
Well-known
If you are in London - the Imperial War Museum and the Churchill War Rooms are worthwhile
Don Parsons
Well-known
Has any one here been to Stalingrad? Do they have any war memorials worth seeing?
rodt16s
Well-known
Doesn't quite fit with your June timeslot, but the War and Peace show can be quite interesting and is on the way to the chunnel
Mauro
Mauro
I suggest Anzio and Cassino Abbey
mynikonf2
OEM
Remember the people...
Remember the people...
I too will be visiting the European theater of both WWI (the war to end all wars) and WWII and..., and...
Having just buried my WWII Vet Father, I would ask that you pay your respects to those who gave all they had to end the crazy Hitler lead regime. The battlefields contain the blood of all who fought there. Their bodies may or may not remain but the their blood does. These places are sacred in and of themselves, not because of the "glorified war" that they become a side note to. But because of each and every individual whose hope and dreams for life ended there.
I would have to agree that you will need a place to "come up for air" because even the most frivolous of visitors (not saying or implying that you are) will find it hard not to be affected by these places.
I wish you safety and hope that you find what you're searching for.
Remember the people...
I too will be visiting the European theater of both WWI (the war to end all wars) and WWII and..., and...
Having just buried my WWII Vet Father, I would ask that you pay your respects to those who gave all they had to end the crazy Hitler lead regime. The battlefields contain the blood of all who fought there. Their bodies may or may not remain but the their blood does. These places are sacred in and of themselves, not because of the "glorified war" that they become a side note to. But because of each and every individual whose hope and dreams for life ended there.
I would have to agree that you will need a place to "come up for air" because even the most frivolous of visitors (not saying or implying that you are) will find it hard not to be affected by these places.
I wish you safety and hope that you find what you're searching for.
David Hughes
David Hughes
Hi,
Just a personal opinion but Duxford is rather static.
Just up the road from Duxford is the Shuttleworth Collection of aircraft from the 1900's onwards and they are all taken out and flown from time to time.
This link shows what was flying last time and I'm sure you can find your way around the site.
http://shuttleworth.org/tickets/event-details.asp?ID=266
In your shoes I'd stay somewhere between London and Duxford or Shuttleworth and use the train service or bus or coach north or south.
Regards, David
Just a personal opinion but Duxford is rather static.
Just up the road from Duxford is the Shuttleworth Collection of aircraft from the 1900's onwards and they are all taken out and flown from time to time.
This link shows what was flying last time and I'm sure you can find your way around the site.
http://shuttleworth.org/tickets/event-details.asp?ID=266
In your shoes I'd stay somewhere between London and Duxford or Shuttleworth and use the train service or bus or coach north or south.
Regards, David
Brian Atherton
Well-known
Don,
You mentioned “Duxford” so I presume you intend to visit the Imperial War Museum Duxford:
http://www.iwm.org.uk/visits/iwm-duxford
Last Friday I spent an entire day there. With a huge car park, it’s a large, open site with plenty of seating and cafés dotted around.
The various hangers are stuffed with historic aircraft, with no restriction on photography anywhere on the site. Inside each there’s a range of interactive displays, videos and shops selling books, models and clothing.
Be aware that in inclement weather one is very exposed between the hangers. Without proper rainwear you will get soaked.
Something you may consider is prebooking a flight, although these are entirely dependent upon the weather:
http://www.duxfordflying.co.uk/index.php?pageid=588
All in all I had a great day wandering about. The icing on the cake was several low runway over-flights by a two-seater Spitfire; the sound of that Merlin is something else!
If you have time, consider visiting the American WWII Cemetery a short hop away near Cambridge:
http://www.abmc.gov/cemeteries-memorials/europe/cambridge-american-cemetery
http://madingleyamericancemetery.info/graves.htm
You mentioned “Duxford” so I presume you intend to visit the Imperial War Museum Duxford:
http://www.iwm.org.uk/visits/iwm-duxford
Last Friday I spent an entire day there. With a huge car park, it’s a large, open site with plenty of seating and cafés dotted around.
The various hangers are stuffed with historic aircraft, with no restriction on photography anywhere on the site. Inside each there’s a range of interactive displays, videos and shops selling books, models and clothing.
Be aware that in inclement weather one is very exposed between the hangers. Without proper rainwear you will get soaked.
Something you may consider is prebooking a flight, although these are entirely dependent upon the weather:
http://www.duxfordflying.co.uk/index.php?pageid=588
All in all I had a great day wandering about. The icing on the cake was several low runway over-flights by a two-seater Spitfire; the sound of that Merlin is something else!
If you have time, consider visiting the American WWII Cemetery a short hop away near Cambridge:
http://www.abmc.gov/cemeteries-memorials/europe/cambridge-american-cemetery
http://madingleyamericancemetery.info/graves.htm
David Hughes
David Hughes
"nd Thoughts - FWIW
"nd Thoughts - FWIW
Hi,
Thinking about it and wondering how you will fit it all in and I remembered that there are several travel firms in the UK offering battlefield tours. So it might be easy to come to England, do whatever and then leave on one of these battlefield tours with a lot you want to cover in a package.
Here's an example: http://www.leger.co.uk/Experiences/Battlefields/Overview
The snag is I can't see you wanting to go to Britain, then go on a tour for a while and then return to England. But I do think you are biting off far more than you can chew, if you don't mind me saying so.
France can be very depressing if you keep your eyes open, there are war cemeteries everywhere, some very small but they get to you after a while. You'll also see plaques on walls and buildings commemorating local events and looking at the numbers and ages can be harrowing after a while. And if that isn't enough a lot of buildings still show scars like bullet holes deliberately left there: even private houses, a friend of mine's has them for example.
Anyway, that's just my 2d worth; I wouldn't want you or anyone to go without being forewarned.
REgards, David
"nd Thoughts - FWIW
Hi,
Thinking about it and wondering how you will fit it all in and I remembered that there are several travel firms in the UK offering battlefield tours. So it might be easy to come to England, do whatever and then leave on one of these battlefield tours with a lot you want to cover in a package.
Here's an example: http://www.leger.co.uk/Experiences/Battlefields/Overview
The snag is I can't see you wanting to go to Britain, then go on a tour for a while and then return to England. But I do think you are biting off far more than you can chew, if you don't mind me saying so.
France can be very depressing if you keep your eyes open, there are war cemeteries everywhere, some very small but they get to you after a while. You'll also see plaques on walls and buildings commemorating local events and looking at the numbers and ages can be harrowing after a while. And if that isn't enough a lot of buildings still show scars like bullet holes deliberately left there: even private houses, a friend of mine's has them for example.
Anyway, that's just my 2d worth; I wouldn't want you or anyone to go without being forewarned.
REgards, David