Please help me make the jump to M8

[MartinL]

Background
I currently shoot (for work and not-work) with a very nice SLR kit:
Canon 1D MkII; 16-35 2.8; 24-105 4.0 IS; 70-200 2.8 IS; & a 50 1.4
It's quite wonderful 🙂 And big and heavy 🙁

I'm increasingly drawn to the M8 for all the well stated reasons that I won't go into. I'll be keeping my SLR kit for work (institutional "house" photographer, documentation, community events, etc.).

I do not want to go down the M8 road until I'm thoroughly satisfied that I can see myself living with it and loving it "for the duration." That would require at least a few weeks of having it around my neck (and shooting!) night and day.

Questions:
1. What's the best way (OK, a good way) to get some extended hands-on experience to inform my M8 decision (One call to Samy's in Los Angeles revealed that they would rent an M7 and one lens for two weeks for close to $800.)

2. Other than a Leica (or Leica M), will anything match up with the M8 experience close enough to give me a fair experience by which to judge?

3. Any thoughts about buying and reselling used? (Note: either type of transaction makes me a nervous wreck)?

4. Wanna loan me a camera?🙄

Thanks
MartinL

 

[Tuolumne]

Buy a used Bessa R2 or R3 off of this list. That's probably the best way to get into rangefinder photography. If you don't like it, you can always pass it on in another sale.

/T

 

[Ben Z]

My opinion, as a wannabe M8 owner also, is that the M8's "issues" (IR filters, coding, sudden death et al) are challenges that the dedicated Leica owner with a vested interest (= bunch of lenses) in the system might be motivated to take on, but a $5000 body with known glitches and a non-transferable warranty definitely is not what I'd recommend as a first step into Leica. For that I would suggest a late-model M6 and 50 Summicron, which could easily be re-sold for virtually no loss in a month if Leica isn't for you, or kept as a backup if you do decide to go forward with an M8. Of course my advice is based on money being an object. If it isn't, then heck, go for the M8 right off.

 

[foto_fool]

When is money NOT an object? Sorry... went all existential on myself for a moment there.

I like film cameras - I have a few - and the real film workflow. I also like the immediacy of digital. With the known M8 issues, the likelihood that Leica will be around for a while - and likely to come out with some sort of M8+ sooner or later which fixed these problems, or most of them - I just could not pull the trigger on an M8.

I like Tuolumne's suggestion - get a Bessa and a couple of the great CV lenses, and see how you like it. If you like the feel of the Bessa, hunt for a used Epson R-D1. The R-D1 is hardly perfect, but you can pick one up for less than half of the cost of an M8 (or less). Check the R-D1 forum - folks are making some great images with that rig.

- John

 

[Tuolumne]

I agree with John. I love my R-D1 and feel no urge to "upgrade" to an M8. If the camera has staying power I can wait for the M9 or M8+ or whatever it is, or even a Zeiss digital at half the price. In the mean time, the R-D1 makes me happy as a digital rangefinder user. I think used ones can be had now at under $1500 if you shop carefully, which is much less than half the price of an M8.

/T

 

[Joe Mondello]

Well B&H will give you 2 weeks to see if you like it -- although also limited to less than 200 clicks -- if you want to return it.

I surely second the CV lenses they are a steal. Read everything you can at www.reidreviews.com.

I went out shooting on Sat and Sun. Sat with D200 and a couple of mid-size (pro) zooms. I came back sore and tired. Sunday with an M8 and 4 CV lenses and never noticed the weight of the bag. The image quality is very similar with an edge to the M8.

Check out my thread about people replacing their dSLR gear with M8s . . .

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39856

Sure there are things that the D200 and its kit can do that the M8 can't, but for most things -- and most of the time -- I'd rather shoot with the M8.

As for the issues mentioned above. I haven't used an IR filter yet and while there are shots that require it, I like the color I get from the M8, haven't had any really weird behavior or sudden death -- and sure hope I won't.

I think the vast majority of M8 owners are very happy with their cameras. Haven't exactly seen a whole lot of used ones popping up!!

 

[foto_fool]

I think used ones can be had now at under $1500 if you shop carefully, which is much less than half the price of an M8.

/T

I just picked one up for $1,600 and am expecting it in the mail tomorrow. And I note that although Joe loves his M8, his avatar is still the R-D1 dial - clearly still loves his Epson too!

- John

 

[swoop]

If you're not familiar with a rangefinder I wouldn't bother. Just use what works for you.

Buying it because it's digital and says Leica on it is silly. I mean think about it. If you have to be convinced, then cost is a factor. You're going to be spending a huge amount of cash on a camera that works in a way that is foreign to you.

Which also means you will not get desired results. You'd have to learn a completely different method and style of working. "Better pictures come from better photographers. Not better cameras." And everyone on this forum knows the M8 as a digital camera has plenty of flaws. Iffish high ISO performance, colour balance issues and such.

My guess is from the list you offered of your equipment your line of thinking is it's a camera made by a company that's supposed to make the greatest cameras and lenses in the world, and you want one. Let me explain my logic. First you mention your camera (Which should have no weight in buying another one), and then you mention your big L series zoom lenses that cover all the focal lengths in the world. Likely because you want to have that one "just in case." Coming from that, you'd just end up frustrated with the Leica's slow as hell autofocus. And that lenses only come in one focal length each.

My suggestion to you, is just to buy some prime lenses for your Canon. And get used to working that way. Then you start working with manual focus all the time. It's a step in the right direction. If you can work that way then it's easier to make the rangefinder jump. And if you won't listen to reason, and are still itching to try it. Just get an Epson RD-1. I doubt you're the type to deal with film. My guess is you once owned a 10D, and before that a Sony P&S. And if there's hope. Maybe you took a photo workshop. But if I'm wrong, and you're familiar with film, I'd suggest a bessa R2a.

If I sound harsh well. I'm trying to save you from making a mistake. And if I'm off base. All I have to gather from is a single post. And if you're offended, it's ok. You did ask for opinions.

 

[x-ray]

Think long and hard about what you're getting into with the M8. It'a a crap shoot as to whether you'll have these issues with yours. Consider this, if the M8 was a new model Canon would the Canon users give Canon a free pass on the problems many are having with the M8. Would the M8 Canon fail or would dedicated Canon owners go ahead and buy it even though it had so many issues? Wait another generation and let the bugs get fixed. I just don't believe in beta testing at my expense.

 

[Joe Mondello]

I just picked one up for $1,600 and am expecting it in the mail tomorrow. And I note that although Joe loves his M8, his avatar is still the R-D1 dial - clearly still loves his Epson too!

- John

The dials on the R-D1 are SO cool! I do wish that the M8 had more of the R-D1's aesthetic!

 

[jaapv]

Disregard the bashing and parroting in this thread. It has been around since the M8 hit the street. I think this link: http://www.popphoto.com/cameras/4133/extreme-field-test-leica-m8-in-iraq.html is a more objective and accurate account about the use this camera can be put to.

The threads about problems with the camera have all but disappeared from the LUF and RFF forums. Draw your own conclusions about the posts about bugs and crap shoots....

 

[Ben Z]

There are at least two possible reasons why reports of bugs have all but disappeared from the forums. One is what I'd like to hope: that the buggy cameras were just a few and have all been sold and are being dealt with by their owners. However, another possibility is that people can search previous threads that if a cold reboot doesn't revive their DOA M8 it has to go back to Solms, so there isn't any upside in starting a new thread, only the downside of being flamed for bashing.

I now have a complete set of Heliopan IR filters, a well-functioning RD1 to serve as backup, a plan to self-code lenses and adaptors, and much more confidence in the M8 than a couple months ago. As soon as I get one of those enticements from one of my credit cards that offers 0% interest on balance transfers until sometime in '08 I'll buy my M8 on a different card, transfer the balance to the 0% card and pay it off in equal monthly installments. That's how I like to do things, all ducks in a row. I'm just not the impulsive sort, shoot me.

Likewise I've been using Leica rangefinders for umpteen years and know them like the back of my hand. I've seen a lot of people buy a Leica and just not take to it, usually because they were unprepared for or unwilling to put forth the effort required to make it sing in their hands (loading, frameline accuracy, metering pattern, and so onl). So my intent was not to dredge up the M8's issues for the sake of panning the camera, just to point out that they are added to the same paradigm shift that was always necessary for Leica rangefinders, and that perhaps a $1000 purchase of a fully-depreciated M6 might be a more economically-prudent way to see if Leica is your cup of tea than a brand-new $5000 M8.

 

[Keith]

I have had an M8 for a week now and I must admit I went into the purchase with my eyes wide open. I have no IR filters yet and won't get them until I decide on a lens selection. So far I have mainly used a 28mm but wouldn't mind something a bit wider ... a 50 feels like a portrait lens with the crop. There are issues ... and after using the camera for a few days I realise it would be nearly useless without the filters ... I have a lot of purple blacks already ... more so than I expected. There also appears to be a slight rangefinder misalignment on mine but I don't think it's serious enough to worry me! I regard the shutter as somewhat loud which will bother some and not others ... in quiet arenas it will draw attention! I think the camera has huge potential but it will take me quite a while to realise that potential. I intend using it for people photography mainly and I think it will excel in that field ... as most Leicas do!

I have no regrets in buying the M8 as I was well aware of the relevant current quirks that curse this fine camera and was prepared. I can only recommend it whole heartedly!

Expensive though! 🙂

 

[washy21]

Like countless others I own an M8 and have never experienced one single problem. It is a joy to use regardless of whether you shoot SLR or not. To be honest I don't really see all the fuss when people talk about getting used to shooting with a rangefinder.

It's pretty simple really. You just look through a gorgeous bright viewfinder, quickly focus and make picture, and the best bit is that a mirror doesn't slap up and stop you seeing the shot as you take it.

My wife who has never used a camera in her life sussed it out within about 15 seconds. Ignore the M8 bashers especially those ones who don't own one.😉 😉 😉

I own a Canon 1DS and I love them both for different reasons.

So buy one and see for yourself.🙄 🙄

 

[Ben Z]

I don't really see all the fuss when people talk about getting used to shooting with a rangefinder.

For one thing the viewfinder does not show depth of field dependent upon lens/aperture. For another it doesn't show foreground/background expansion or potential distortions of wide lenses if the camera is tilted, or the compression effect of telephotos. The framelines are conservative and only accurate at very close distance, beyond which you get increasingly more on the final image than what was enclosed within the framelines. Those issues may not matter to some people, but the Leica is definitely not WYSIWYG under most circumstances. Those who are used to controling the pictorial content of their photos through the lens of an SLR have to develop experience and mental visualization to get the same results with the rangefinder. It's not difficult but it isn't automatic or instantaneous.

 

[jaapv]

For one thing the viewfinder does not show depth of field dependent upon lens/aperture. For another it doesn't show foreground/background expansion or potential distortions of wide lenses if the camera is tilted, or the compression effect of telephotos. The framelines are conservative and only accurate at very close distance, beyond which you get increasingly more on the final image than what was enclosed within the framelines. Those issues may not matter to some people, but the Leica is definitely not WYSIWYG under most circumstances. Those who are used to controling the pictorial content of their photos through the lens of an SLR have to develop experience and mental visualization to get the same results with the rangefinder. It's not difficult but it isn't automatic or instantaneous.

You are right Ben, but I would hardly call this issues, rather characteristics, and you forget to mention focus problems like focus shift on stopping down, a focussing accuracy that gets less instead of more as focal length increases, the ability to photograph the inside of the lenscap, and a few more I cannot reel off straight away.🙄 However, for those that have the "feel" it is all worth it. I once saw the difference described thus: A SLR looks at the subject from the outside, the longer the focal length the more like a peeping Tom, a RF is a participant and thus less obtrusive and resented. And on a Leica M you have to hold the bottom plate with your teeth when changing film/SDcard/batteries 😀

 

[swoop]

And on a Leica M you have to hold the bottom plate with your teeth when changing film/SDcard/batteries 😀

lol. I've often been found with either a roll of film or a base plate in my mouth at the most awkward moments.

 

[MartinL]

Well, thanks to one and all for the responses. Nobody'd ever accuse you folks of "group-think." Believe it or don't, it's all been helpful. Or at least soothing. I'm still teetering between just buying a cheapish pocket digi point and shoot (and if I could find one that came with both RAW and even minimum noise issues, I'd do it --- Canon's discontinued S70 seems like the last, best attempt) uh-oh , where did this sentence start?

Anyway, I'm exploring a rangefinder----something that's older, but the near side of collectable. Been so long since I've done film. Who has film developed to a CD? Is that a common workflow? I'm so used to digi processing/PS that I'd sort of hate to give that up. I call it the "enhanced decicive moment" ----a little crop here, a little dodge there. . . .

Thanks for the input
MartinL

 

[Ben Z]

However, for those that have the "feel" it is all worth it.

I agree, and getting the feel isn't rocket science, it's gained from experience, which is not just repetition, it's a concious effort to learn from trial and error. Modern technology tries hard to guarantee us we won't have to do that, but the tradeoff is handing over control to the machine (actually, the guy who progamed it). It's one thing to accept that with a Lexus that parks itself but quite another with a creative tool such as a camera.

 

[MartinL]

I agree, and getting the feel isn't rocket science, it's gained from experience, which is not just repetition, it's a concious effort to learn from trial and error. Modern technology tries hard to guarantee us we won't have to do that, but the tradeoff is handing over control to the machine (actually, the guy who progamed it). It's one thing to accept that with a Lexus that parks itself but quite another with a creative tool such as a camera.

In Dan Neil's review (L.A. Times) today he adds . . .
"the car [LS600h], wrapped in endless layers of refinement and cottony quiet, networked and sensor-ed . . .is just so damned uninvolving.
"The stearing has zero feel. The brake pedal. . . no touch. . .

and my favorite,

"computerized, cyber-managed air suspension does, indeed, deliver a gorgeous ride, a ride worthy of a heroin overdose."
Martin