NY_Dan
Well-known
Hi Everybody. Thank you for taking the time to reply and offer feedback. I truly appreciate every response!
In terms of the 10-1 rating scale, all I can offer is that photography is so subjective, that it's impossible (for me at least) to come up with some sort of scale that's appropriate in all ways. I know some of us are very analytical -- nothing wrong with that -- but I'm happy with a subjective rating that can be influenced by any external factor.
Now it's time for me to share why I've refrained from sharing the back story regarding this thread. First off, I wanted to read everyone's input without it being influenced superfluous context.
This past June I was introduced to a Chicago publisher through my daughter's friend's friend of the publisher's son. Convoluted? You bet. The publisher was at a Chicago book fair. There I met his publishing partner. He told me he liked my work, and even recognized my 82-year old aunt -- but he didn't know why he recognized her. Whatever. Turns out he's in the long process of publishing these 8x8 inch 28 page (of photos) books for Alzheimer patients. Researchers have discovered that photo books with simple text like songs, are books that Alzheimer sufferers can follow. The idea is that home healthcare aides will sit down and go through the books with the patient. So they want a book that will appeal to the patient and provider. Got it?
So this is why the book is square -- which as a Rolleiflex shooter I love -- and it's also why most of the right hand pages have a white border -- for text. I created this book so the publisher could see which photos I would choose, their order and design.
The title No Man Is An Island -- although I pee'd myself at the suggestion it be called No Dan Is An Island -- was chosen by me because it's a famous quote and also because Manhattan is an Island -- I proved this by circumnavigation on the Circle Line Other choices of mine were Manhattan, Manhattan Island, and Around Manhattan Island. Also, there's a famous young gospel/country band that has a song title with the same name, with lyrics that might work, and because they give to charity, they might want to help Alzheimer patients.
The reason for the photos of people, and the famous landmarks, and just about everything was because the publisher wanted the book to loosely tell a story. He gave me two sample books -- one was of ranch photos with the words to Home On The Range & the other was a book with photos from FSA photographers of the 1930's that was train related - starting with photos of Penn Station and traveling West to Arizona or so.
I had two concepts in mind. One was this trip around Manhattan. I only used about 7 or so photos from the Circle Line. Some others were taken from ferry trips between Manhattan and Brooklyn. The rest were from Roosevelt Island, Brooklyn, NYC and other areas. The photos are sequential -- so when you see the 59th St Bridge, photos before and after show nearby areas like the UN or Sutton Place, or Roosevelt Island.
The publisher told me my work would be on spec -- as in a spec of dust -- that's what we called it when I went pro back in the ice ages. If the book was accepted he would pay $1,000. Between film, chemicals, Circle Line, and travel I spent about $185. Then I spent about 100 hours developing, scanning and designing. And this doesn't include my costs involved with the other photos.
I sent the publisher all the photos and also the pdf. He told me he liked it very much. Then I didn't hear from him for many weeks. Finally I e-mailed him and asked for the status. He told me he liked it but his partner was lukewarm, and because they agreed when they partnered up that anything required complete agreement, they were passing it up. And that's that.
As photographers, most of us want to share our efforts with others -- especially other in-the-know like fellow photographers. I turned to you guys on RFF and also Tumblr (that's why I accidentally included my idiotic comment about hand developing mea culpa ) to share the photos. What else was there to do. Now that I've got that off my chest -- It's back to the salt mines as they say and shoot some more -- I'm hand developing 6 rolls as I type.
Lastly, I don't care if anyone is harsh or kicks my butt. I'm already out $185 so what could be worse
In terms of the 10-1 rating scale, all I can offer is that photography is so subjective, that it's impossible (for me at least) to come up with some sort of scale that's appropriate in all ways. I know some of us are very analytical -- nothing wrong with that -- but I'm happy with a subjective rating that can be influenced by any external factor.
Now it's time for me to share why I've refrained from sharing the back story regarding this thread. First off, I wanted to read everyone's input without it being influenced superfluous context.
This past June I was introduced to a Chicago publisher through my daughter's friend's friend of the publisher's son. Convoluted? You bet. The publisher was at a Chicago book fair. There I met his publishing partner. He told me he liked my work, and even recognized my 82-year old aunt -- but he didn't know why he recognized her. Whatever. Turns out he's in the long process of publishing these 8x8 inch 28 page (of photos) books for Alzheimer patients. Researchers have discovered that photo books with simple text like songs, are books that Alzheimer sufferers can follow. The idea is that home healthcare aides will sit down and go through the books with the patient. So they want a book that will appeal to the patient and provider. Got it?
So this is why the book is square -- which as a Rolleiflex shooter I love -- and it's also why most of the right hand pages have a white border -- for text. I created this book so the publisher could see which photos I would choose, their order and design.
The title No Man Is An Island -- although I pee'd myself at the suggestion it be called No Dan Is An Island -- was chosen by me because it's a famous quote and also because Manhattan is an Island -- I proved this by circumnavigation on the Circle Line
Other choices of mine were Manhattan, Manhattan Island, and Around Manhattan Island. Also, there's a famous young gospel/country band that has a song title with the same name, with lyrics that might work, and because they give to charity, they might want to help Alzheimer patients.The reason for the photos of people, and the famous landmarks, and just about everything was because the publisher wanted the book to loosely tell a story. He gave me two sample books -- one was of ranch photos with the words to Home On The Range & the other was a book with photos from FSA photographers of the 1930's that was train related - starting with photos of Penn Station and traveling West to Arizona or so.
I had two concepts in mind. One was this trip around Manhattan. I only used about 7 or so photos from the Circle Line. Some others were taken from ferry trips between Manhattan and Brooklyn. The rest were from Roosevelt Island, Brooklyn, NYC and other areas. The photos are sequential -- so when you see the 59th St Bridge, photos before and after show nearby areas like the UN or Sutton Place, or Roosevelt Island.
The publisher told me my work would be on spec -- as in a spec of dust -- that's what we called it when I went pro back in the ice ages. If the book was accepted he would pay $1,000. Between film, chemicals, Circle Line, and travel I spent about $185. Then I spent about 100 hours developing, scanning and designing. And this doesn't include my costs involved with the other photos.
I sent the publisher all the photos and also the pdf. He told me he liked it very much. Then I didn't hear from him for many weeks. Finally I e-mailed him and asked for the status. He told me he liked it but his partner was lukewarm, and because they agreed when they partnered up that anything required complete agreement, they were passing it up. And that's that.
As photographers, most of us want to share our efforts with others -- especially other in-the-know like fellow photographers. I turned to you guys on RFF and also Tumblr (that's why I accidentally included my idiotic comment about hand developing mea culpa ) to share the photos. What else was there to do. Now that I've got that off my chest -- It's back to the salt mines as they say and shoot some more -- I'm hand developing 6 rolls as I type.
Lastly, I don't care if anyone is harsh or kicks my butt. I'm already out $185 so what could be worse
cz23
-
Gee, Dan, maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it sounds like the book was a fait accompli and you weren't actually interested in feedback. Wish I'd known the context before I spent the time commenting.
John
John
NY_Dan
Well-known
No! You misunderstood me. I wanted the feedback. How would I get feedback if nobody ever saw it. The book exists as a Blurb book only. I ordered one badly printed copy for myself at a cost of $29. Fait accompli would mean that the book was going to be published. It isn't! Of course if it was going to be published then I couldn't show it without the permission of the publisher - and not until after publication if at all. And if it was going to be published, then it would have words as was intended.
So John, where do you want me to send the check for the time you spent commenting? -- Hey wait a minute -- the only comment I see of yours is the one I quoted -- unreel!
charjohncarter
Veteran
It is raining here in CA (1/2 inch!?), so the phones, internet, and cable are slow or not working. I tell them this isn't Buffalo. So I'll check back tomorrow, but I really like what I see so far.
cz23
-
Hey wait a minute -- the only comment I see of yours is the one I quoted -- unreel!
I commented on the book extensively and constructively, but deleted my remarks after your "send the check" comment. Pretty hurtful, actually. It was not my intention to sour your thread. I'll step away now.
John
NY_Dan
Well-known
That's not true. You deleted your comments BEFORE you wrote the comment about my book being a "fait accompli" -- I checked many times and could not find a post from you -- and that was confusing because you commented about spending time writing a post -- so naturally I wanted to see what it was -- as if spending time writing a post on an RFF forum is such a burden
. Although I do recall there being one from you earlier in the day -- and that was not exactly constructive if I recall correctly -- maybe you could delete your non-hurtful 1 vote too And besides, I posted a at the end of my reply to your reply -- and that indicates having fun. So now I'm hurtful? So step away. But before you do, try to remember the good times we had together __jc
Well-known
Thanks AusDLK. I commented, gave what I consider to be an honest evaluation only to find out from you that that makes me and the others who have commented a fanboy, someone not to be trusted and/or a nincompoop. Appreciate that.
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
***, whats wrong w people being so edgy in this thread?
Did you all get snowed over and stuck in the car for a day and a half, without booze?
Did you all get snowed over and stuck in the car for a day and a half, without booze?
Turtle
Veteran
LOL. Bang on.
Deep breaths everyone Then booze.
I see no fait accomplis here at all. Why NY Dan posted it makes perfect sense to me.
Deep breaths everyone
Then booze.I see no fait accomplis here at all. Why NY Dan posted it makes perfect sense to me.
Michael Markey
Veteran
Hi Dan ...just some context.
"No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine; if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as well as if a Mannor of thy friends or of thine owne were; any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.[22] [Donne's original spelling and punctuation]"
Good title ...I think someone else used the last line of the poem as a title too
taemo
eat sleep shoot
Dan, I've gone through your book 4-5 times now since yesterday, you've got some really nice captures in it but overall the book feels incomplete and unorganized.
I know that you arranged them in sequence but I would have also arranged them in type of photography (ie the 2 portraits together), a good example of nice arrangement that you did was pic 10&11, the lines of the bridge on the right pic flows nicely with the shadows on the left pic.
Poor arrangement on the other hand was pic 8&9, bridge on the left with nice soft contrast, then on the right is the portrait of the girl with stronger contrast.
I really like the first 5 pics though, nice arrangement, going through them reminds me so much of the new song by Taylor Swift - Welcome To New York (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzr5VtFvSyw)
And those kids playing baseball, classic shot!
I know that you arranged them in sequence but I would have also arranged them in type of photography (ie the 2 portraits together), a good example of nice arrangement that you did was pic 10&11, the lines of the bridge on the right pic flows nicely with the shadows on the left pic.
Poor arrangement on the other hand was pic 8&9, bridge on the left with nice soft contrast, then on the right is the portrait of the girl with stronger contrast.
I really like the first 5 pics though, nice arrangement, going through them reminds me so much of the new song by Taylor Swift - Welcome To New York (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzr5VtFvSyw)
And those kids playing baseball, classic shot!
Vics
Veteran
I took that cruise last year, and it is a lot of fun, and really informative. My pictures weren't NEARLY as interesting as yours. I think I'll get one of these for my daughter, who sprang for our whole trip to NYC and DC. Great work!
Out to Lunch
Ventor
From where I come from there is little of the American automatic 'great', 'fantastic', and 'well done'. Kudos to you to invite criticism from an international audience. Since you did....
- some of the photos are great
- others are not so great
---what kills the concept for me: a lack of consistent imaginary with regards to the 'Island' idea.
I'd sit back...take more time and do it again.
Warm regards, Peter
- some of the photos are great
- others are not so great
---what kills the concept for me: a lack of consistent imaginary with regards to the 'Island' idea.
I'd sit back...take more time and do it again.
Warm regards, Peter
NY_Dan
Well-known
Thanks Peter. I put all this together for the Publisher I met in Chicago. It was on spec -- which is always risky. As such I was willing to take a $45 cruise around NYC and shoot 12 rolls of film -- another $70 plus. I submitted these photos. The publisher then showed me a comp pdf of a book his partner put together from FSA photos that were 75 years old. The shots theme was trains -- and they were organized from East to West and had photos of people. He also told me he didn't want the book to have a how to feel or be literal. I then went to my own archives and choose photographs, some people and some scenic that were of his taste.
The maximum number of pages was 28 -- so with 2 spreads, that came to 26 photos. I made the pdf comp on Blurb so I could buy a pdf for about $6. I then sent this to the publisher. He thought it was much better and seemed "excited" about showing it to his partner. What I then expected was a revision or two, some design changes, and to learn what they were going to do about text. They had mentioned having a poet or other writer supply text -- just a sentence per spread -- two at most. Instead he told me has partner was lukewarm on it, and because they agreed to only do things they were equally excited about, they were going to pass. This annoyed me because he didn't tell me I had to please two people, nor did he run it all by his partner, and he also wasn't communicative -- I still wouldn't know they had passed almost a month ago had I not asked. Trying to please one publisher is hard enough - forget about two. And the only thing I've seen them publish are vintage photos -- If you're living don't bother applying
I got a one-off book/collection of photos and took a boat ride.Anyway, when I was done with the design for the book draft/comp whatever -- I decided I liked it -- of course some photos more than others -- that's normal -- and I liked the flow because it starts off earlier in the day and from around 42nd St, and goes around Manhattan -- with the shore photos of scenes and people coinciding with the river view photos.
Now, for me -- I don't wish to revisit the book -- at least not right away. And for me, I don't necessarily like projects that necessitate certain photos. I prefer my seemingly random, but with various themes street photography.
So there you have it. Clearly some people like the book, some don't, some like some photos but not other, a majority like the baseball/bridge/fence photos (so do I) -- some like the double page Triborough Bridge photo (taken with my Fuji 690). I don't think the 2 people who gave the book a 1 are very nice
If everyone had "loved" the book, then I would've considered sending the link to the publisher for reconsideration.
I do thank everyone for interacting. Funny how everything on forums quickly becomes controversial.
And that's that.
charjohncarter
Veteran
I stopped raining here so my computer was able to load BlurB. I liked you book, the first and the last are my favorites.