oftheherd
Veteran
Getting back to the old 9x12's
Getting back to the old 9x12's
Getting back to the 9x12's (not to take anything from the great line of Graphics), I wanted to show everyone a front on of the camera from my father's case. I am hoping Chippy or someone else can tell me what brand and perhaps even the year(s) it was made. I can't wait to get some film in the mail and try it. I will try at 9x12, not the 127. Yet. I am intrigued by trying at least one roll of both b/w and color. I used both when I was photographing the museum. I sure wish I had some of those old photos.
Anyway, here it is front on, and some writing on one side. I can't really see it well, much less photograph it. At first I thought it was something printed. However, I think it was hand written with some instrument. I will try an infrared photo when I have a chance. Best I can make out, it is WK MEEK or MEEKS. Perhaps a former owner.
Getting back to the old 9x12's
Getting back to the 9x12's (not to take anything from the great line of Graphics), I wanted to show everyone a front on of the camera from my father's case. I am hoping Chippy or someone else can tell me what brand and perhaps even the year(s) it was made. I can't wait to get some film in the mail and try it. I will try at 9x12, not the 127. Yet. I am intrigued by trying at least one roll of both b/w and color. I used both when I was photographing the museum. I sure wish I had some of those old photos.
Anyway, here it is front on, and some writing on one side. I can't really see it well, much less photograph it. At first I thought it was something printed. However, I think it was hand written with some instrument. I will try an infrared photo when I have a chance. Best I can make out, it is WK MEEK or MEEKS. Perhaps a former owner.
Attachments
chippy
foo was here
its always risky to guess but without checking i would say at this point it is a Balda. the U shape standard and the distinctive shape of the wire frame finder makes it look a Balda for sure. Model hmm i would need to check and i dont have lots on Balda but quite possible its a number model. they named some models by number (as did Welta very early on) i.e 2,3,4,5 for example and i would think this is a high number (maybe 6) because of the late model shutter for instance, as well as it looks to have thngs like the red bubble and so on. Also a Nizza model comes to mind, again one reason is it looks to be a late model Balda and the nizza was introduced around this time that i would estimate yours to be. the lens and shutter serial number may help to establish age but I could guess as early as 29-31 not earlier (maybe a late one even but i am thinking they usualy moved the brilliant finder to the side as time went on). also you can check whether its a steel body or aluminum (obviously not a holtz)...
hmm just to add another, i just thought of the Balda Radial as well, it seems to fit the features of yours (and i rekon they kept the finder in the middle). the radials were made from 31 onwards but there is littel difference between a Nizza and Radial. Ah scratch that, i just notice yours doesnt have a radial focus lever so it counts that out
so at a guess i would say its likely a Nizza or No.6
i have a new book comming from germany in the weeks ahead so i may be able to narrow it down after that if someone doesnt come across it for sure in the mean time
hmm just to add another, i just thought of the Balda Radial as well, it seems to fit the features of yours (and i rekon they kept the finder in the middle). the radials were made from 31 onwards but there is littel difference between a Nizza and Radial. Ah scratch that, i just notice yours doesnt have a radial focus lever so it counts that out
so at a guess i would say its likely a Nizza or No.6
i have a new book comming from germany in the weeks ahead so i may be able to narrow it down after that if someone doesnt come across it for sure in the mean time
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oftheherd
Veteran
Thanks Chippy. I appreciate that. If you do remember when you get your book, and can figure it out for sure, I will look forward to hearing from you.
Ernst Dinkla
Well-known
Experience with the 5 folders I own, Agfa Record II, Bessa I, Monitor 620, Iskra I (6x6), Polaroid 110a (3x4), tells me that a coupled rangefinder (Iskra, Polaroid) is important. In most cases that choice for a coupled rangefinder goes along with the lens shifting in total for focusing, better lenses, better shutters. In 6x9 that usually means a high price so they are not included in my collection. Bessa II and others are mentioned already, the Ensign Autorange 820 not so far. It would be my favorite if it was available and cheaper. Strut design is important too. If it is a complicated design with lots of hinges and interlocking parts I suggest to avoid that. The simplest designs last longer and need less repair. The Iskra has that like the Agfa models it copied. I'm no fan of the Polaroid strut design nor the one of the Monitor.
If you skip the desire to have a 6x9 go for the Iskra. Best lens, shutter, coupled rangefinder, viewfinder, film transport counter, and looks of the folders that I have. The Iskra got a new skin though. The 6x6 format has its charms too. And most of all: it is still affordable.
http://www.pigment-print.com/tijdelijk/pimpediskra/iskraindex.html
http://www.pigment-print.com/tijdelijk/iskra-and-monitor2.jpg
on front cell focusing:
http://photo.net/medium-format-photography-forum/004r7H
Ernst Dinkla
chippy
foo was here
no problem oftheherd, i hope it was helpfull. it looks a very nice camera, and still in good shape too. do you have the original ground glass back and shade for it still.
I just had a bit of a look in one of my books and it does appear to be a balda for sure (not as many pics around of this vintage/brand tho). tho i havnt gone through all the other brands
you should be able to test if its steel or aluminium body with a magnet. balda for a few of its models offered all three toward the end (20s) and beginning of the 30s Holtz were the cheapest, steel a bit more expensive and aluminium a bit more again. yours looks to be aluminium but its closer to you than it is to me haha. it may be interesting if you send me the shutter and lens serial number, it may help to narrow the date
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oftheherd
Veteran
Yes, I do have the original ground glass back. Looking forward to cutting down some 4x5 to use in it.
I will send the shutter and lens serial number when I get home from work. I will also see if a magnet attracts it.
Thanks.
chippy
foo was here
i guess its easy to get hold of 4x5 in the US and maybe hard to get 9x12.
i know freestyle carry the metric sizes if you didnt feel like cutting, but tht may not be ecomnomical for you to pay the shipping, doesnt make much difference to me being all the way down here
FallisPhoto
Veteran
That's for sure! I hunted all over for an hour and only found one photo of a Balda plate camera. It wasn't his. Found a Balda Six, but that was an entirely different camera, a conventional medium format folder. Where are you finding this stuff?
Before J&C went out of business, it was just as cheap and easy to get the metric sizes. Now it is usually more economical to cut our own down from 4x5. Some of the other films they used to carry are harder to find and are more expensive too. I used to get all my 3.25x4.25 in. (9x12 cm) and 2.25x3.25 (6x9 cm) Efke ISO 25 sheet film there.
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chippy
foo was here
LOL yeah i gave up a looong time ago looking on the net for some of these plate cameras. ok if your looking for a ziess, voigtlander ect. i have almost a small library of books and cattledogs, notes written down ect, and even in them they dont have all the pictures of the various vinatage models..i have some Welta that there are no pictures of anywhere so far, and even old german collectors and camera dealers couldn't tell me what they were but with piecing together bits of info from various places i am able to establish the model. another source is i look on ebay at all the plate camera and many are un-named or incorrectly named so if you look at them often and long enough you eventually get familiar with the subtle signatures of the different makes. things like the struts help identify the maker (cant see them on oftherherd camera) and other things help such as i cant tell if his is in feet or meters.
there must be a bunch of people that have more information than me on these things but we dont hear from them. and there's better ways to spend time but its interesting to uncover what the make and models are, when they were built and so on. but there are sooo many that its never ending and always learning new bits.
oftheherd's looks a balda to me because the wire frame is a pattern they used and also the unique small knobs (to pull the front standard out) are what Balda used on there fancier models. the dial set shutter was introduced around 28 or 29 from memory but in the larger shutter size needed for the 9x12 most likely didnt use dial set consistantly for another year or two after. even tho these plate cameras look basic and near idendical at first glance there are differences. with oftheherds there are still one or two things that are curious--it seems to be thinner than most early cameras (which may indicate its a late model) but it is hard to tell in a picture, its a reasonable guess its aluminum because if it was steel it probably would be painted black and interestingly the lens board has that motled finish, almost like zinc and/or aluminum added to the paint or anodised.
i see the same/simular type of finish on the inside of later 120 folding camera (oftheherd will notice a more modern version of this finish on the inside of his Welti), and it reminds me of the brass lens board moteld finish on my flash looking phoenix-silver as in these pics below. not really coated in silver of course just lashings of nickle. the body is made from bakelite and made to look like wood
Attachments
FallisPhoto
Veteran
I'm on ebay every day, looking at folders. I can't remember ever seeing a Balda plate camera there. Some with that Welta Sport I got though. I'm starting to think restoring it might have been a mistake, since I can't find any info on it anywhere. I'm beginning to believe it might have been quite rare. Other than one other guy who says he has one in Germany, the only mention of a Welta Sport I can find on the internet is in relation to posts either you or I made.
LOL! Why not? Have they all been tracked down and institutionalized?
Now that is one sharp camera! Is that bare bakelite or has it been painted/glazed?
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chippy
foo was here
nah the balda plate camera do seem to be scarce...your more likely to run across ZEH, ICa, Ihagee, so on and so on. but there out there but more often than not the people selling dont know what they have and its just called a 'plate camera'. and really if compared to the more popular (to collect and to use) voigtlander range (particularly their top models) and a couple of other brands they lack a certain feature here and there (sometimes interchange lens for instance) that make them not as appealing to use/have in comparison
a quick look shows there are Balda models 1 through to 7 also, Beewee, Embee, Klappo, Komet, Mars, Nixe, Nizza, Radial, Saturn and Venus, most were made in both wood, steel and aluminium (except generaly the models 1-7) . notice a theme haha, pretty out there hey
Balda naming of models differes from, for example Welta, in that Balda called a differnt size/format camera a different name (as above), whereas Welta had different models with a name e.g. Propa, Rak, Watson, Diana ect and sold that particular model in the various size/formats.
I told you the Welta Sport was pretty rare! (it did need some work though, it was pretty ruff) i just didnt want to overstate it as that word seems to thrown at old cameras all the time. some people say the Welta Weltur is rare but its easier to come across a Weltur than a Sport by a margin of something like 10 to 1 (a guess i havnt taken stats!). a few things may account for it, at the time of the Sport the Welta factory was starting to make the transition to a quite large production company so the Sport probably didnt sell in the numbers the Weltur did. also obviously the Sport is an entry level 6x9 from the 20s, early 30s and it would have been sold to poorer people and these type of camera tend not to be cared for or valued as much and so enivitably discarded....anyway whats rare
,,,yours was the 3rd one i have seen ...i bought the other two. one seems to pop up every year or two although (same again) most often it is sold without the seller knowing what it is called (beyond welta if your lucky)i gotta go ..i hear footsteps haha (Mel Gibson in 'Conspiracy Theory' comes to mind lol)
FallisPhoto
Veteran
Let's put it this way: Do you think I have increased the camera's value, had no effect on its value, or reduced its value? I intended to increase its value. I'm concerned that I may have reduced it though, because I am not sure how rare it is. As I said at the time, the only reason I bought it was that it looked pretty rough. I figured it wouldn't have much collector value and would be a good candidate for restoration. Now I'm wondering if I've inadvertently done the equivalent of making a hotrod out of a 54 Corvette.
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Nick De Marco
Well-known
Processed my shots from the cheap ZI folder I picked up. Some a bit blurry but that's might fault... but I liked this one:
Some more amongst those
http://www.pbase.com/nickdemarco/beside_the_sea_side
Some more amongst those
http://www.pbase.com/nickdemarco/beside_the_sea_side
ZeissFan
Veteran
Nick -- nice shot. Another great photo from a front-cell focusing camera.
chippy
foo was here
looks good, nice picture....kinda reminds me of.......Bond....James Bond
i'm just waiting for the little dude to appear at the end with a gun
chippy
foo was here
well it can be a complex Q&A. Iam not really comfortable making a judgement on it, the way i see it, in money terms (market) it wasnt worth anything much but it provided you with an interest which is worth something
it really depends from what perspective you look at it. in strick terms of collector value it needs to have a market and really there are very few collectors of the Welta, and even though it is a camera rarer than almost any Leica you can point a finger at on ebay over the last year, (including the lllcK or the red curtain lllc or the german air force leicas ect) its probably never going to have a vaule to compare even to the most common leica. (not in our life time anyway)
in terms of vaule for someone wanting a 1920's camera without regard to its maker or history then you would definitly increased its value. it looked bistered and a wreck and you made it look better...if some other common person got it then likely at some point it would of been discarded and thrown in the trash.
if a museum was to collect them ..hmm i dunno, they would probably just want to keep it as it stands but like i said when you were looking at it, they are rare but not unobtainable, so a museum would likely wait for a better example to come along, ...who knows how long that may be...maybe next week or maybe not for 1-10 years. however a museum would not collect it purely for its money value whether it was to increase or not.
to me as a colector of Welta its a tough call, personaly i would leave it as was, more so if i did not have one already (i dont actually have a Sport with that lens-the spezial-aplanat) but as i said back in the beginning, if i was to restore it and in the condition it was, i possibly/probably would if i could get the same pattern covering and as i said i would emboss the lines into it, so it looked original even though it no longer is. but thats just me and a hell of a lot of trouble to go to for a camera thats has a market value of under $40. at any rate it that can still be done to it.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
You just said the magic words. Do you remember that I couldn't find ANY information on it? Well, that includes what it is worth. It isn't in my (admittedly non-current) edition of McBrooms. Couldn't find it here either: http://collectiblend.com/Cameras/ If it has a current market value of under $40, in it's pre-restored condition though, then I've certainly doubled its value or more.
You want to be careful there. Counterfeits are worth nothing. Collectors won't buy them and the effort is wasted on vintage camera users. You can potentially get into trouble too, if the company that made the camera is still around and you are stamping their logo into things.
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chippy
foo was here
when i say market value under $40 thats for a Sport in condition C or the equivilent of McKeowns no. 5--complete but showing signs of normal use or age. the price alters from that depending on condition. if mint it may be around double and if in condition 8--(i mention McKeowns guide/referance because you have a copy. Edit- oops you said McBrooms, sorry) restorable, refinishing required, may or may not be missing some parts, then it is worth maybe half. if in condition 9; for parts only or major restoration, if a rare camera, then its worth 10-30% of the no. 5 price
counterfeiting would be if i was to pass it off as original, or present another look a like camera and place the Welta brand on it. antique dealers would call something a counterfeit if the camera was an imitation of a Welta with the Welta brand on it... kinda like in comparison if you were to restore a old 32 ford or chevy duce and had to repaint it and perhaps a badge or emblem was missing so you went and had one made exactly the same, chromed and put it on. the car is not now considered a counterfiet but simply restored. if however you bought a 32 vauxhall and cut the body, roof and everything ect. and then placed ford or chevy embelms on it to sell as a ford or chevy...well you should be locked up LOL, thats just nasty!!
replacing missing or damaged leather is restoration, to what level of quality the restoration is another matter. and besides its a call i would make on my own camera so i can place it on display without anyone that handles it needing a tetnus shot. i dont think Walter Waurich or Theordor Weber will mind if i restore one of their old corroded Welta
with missing or past servicable leather and empress the original lines or words into the leather. i wouldnt/dont do these things for money (actually it cost me a great deal of money), there are easier ways to earn money- which then gets spent on cameras and film and chemicals and....haha. its just a passtime that has to be done to the occasional camera. personaly i prefer to get a camera in the best condition i can to begin with but alas thats not always possible. interestingly, i remember seeing some bloke on the net will restore Ziess Ikonta's if you send them to him, more particularly he removes ziess bumps and replace the leather if nessarsary. he charges a fair bit (cant remember how much but whatever) because he takes the leather from another Ikonta and glues it on, because he says he has to because of the embossing and debossing in the leather. i bet if he could do the embossing and debossing he would. hate to think he may be wrecking a bunch of cameras just to make a dollar but there ya go. no doubt it keeps it 'more' original tho.
Most folding Welta have the model name in the leather but on some of the early camera they sometimes didnt have the name. you could get away with just imprinting the lines on your Welta Sport; as i said i have two, one has Welta in the covering where the model name is usually imprinted the other doesnt have any word at all, its in very good condition so it would be visable..it still has the lines though
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oftheherd
Veteran
Chippy, I have the serial numbers you mentioned. The lens as I mentioned before is a Rodenstock Trinar 1:4.5, 13.5 cm. The lens itself has a SN of 433943. The shutter is a Compur with SN of 3778548. It has a slanted symbol that looks like a 'greater than' sign in front of the SN. Don't know what that is about.
I also have another 9x12 with Compur shutter SN 3086223, and a Carl Ziess Jena lens with SN 1318274.
I am amazed at the number of people here who have these old 9x12 folding cameras. Also, the interest in them. It almost seems like we need a thread specifically for that. lol
FallisPhoto - have you looked at FreeStylePhoto.biz lately? The seem to have some 9x12 film for sale. I looked mostly when Keith mentioned wanting slower 4x5 film. I was surprised to see it. I don't know if any of the other usual film suppliers have that or not. Nor what the cost would be, especially for shipping.
I also have another 9x12 with Compur shutter SN 3086223, and a Carl Ziess Jena lens with SN 1318274.
I am amazed at the number of people here who have these old 9x12 folding cameras. Also, the interest in them. It almost seems like we need a thread specifically for that. lol
FallisPhoto - have you looked at FreeStylePhoto.biz lately? The seem to have some 9x12 film for sale. I looked mostly when Keith mentioned wanting slower 4x5 film. I was surprised to see it. I don't know if any of the other usual film suppliers have that or not. Nor what the cost would be, especially for shipping.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
Counterfeiting is also if someone else passes your work off as an original.
Nasty? That's insane! What I am thinking of is all those brightly colored FEDs that were being sold on Ebay a while back as "rare collector's items," when they were just spray painted or releathered. A counterfeit is what you have when you try to pass something off as something that it isn't. For instance, if you try to pass off a restored beater as a mint condition original, you are conterfeiting. As an example, in stamp-collecting, if you put glue on the back of glueless, steamed-off-of-envelopes stamps, you are counterfeiting.
It is if you stop there. If you impress the lettering and such into the leatherette though, and if the leatherette is an exact match for the old stuff, it becomes debatable. Someone could easily attempt to pass it off as a mint original -- a counterfeit.
Well, you're assuming he is just throwing the cameras away after salvaging the leather from them. I'd prefer to believe he is painting, releathering, and selling them. C6 is the only guy I know of, or have ever even heard of, who actually brags that he throws cameras away because of one bad part. I mean, how retarded is that?
To emboss the names in the leather/leatherette, you'd need to transfer the lettering onto 1/16 inch sheet brass, cut it out and finish it up with a set of needle files. It wouldn't cost much at all, although it would take some time. Then you would have to use a heat press with the cellulose and vinyl leatherettes, or just wet leather and put it in a cold press. What you'd actually have to buy would be the press, a dremel and some bits, some needle files and the sheet brass. Hmmmmm.......... I wonder if you could do it with a steam iron instead of springing for a heat press? Anyway, what I would like to do is to emboss the lettering in the leatherette, but in a font I designed -- close, but not an exact match to the original. I like doing cameras so that they are close to original, but slightly modified for the better. It's why I choose to restore cameras that are either just a step or two away from becoming landfill or that are as common as dirt; I don't want to ruin valuable collector cameras.
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