Portability of K10D as poor-man rangefinder?

[jomyoot]

Is it small enough if I use pancake lenses?

My dream camera is Leica M8, but I do not want to spend that much.

In addition to the size, is its form factor discreet enough for candid and street photography?

 

[photogdave]

With enough practise ANY camera of ANY size can be used for candid and street photography.
The pancake lens will not mask the size of the K10D body but it's a cool lens nontheless.
It's not a rangefinder substitute but it's a great camera. Buy one if you need a DSLR and shoot some street. If you really want a rangefinder get a used Leica or a new Bessa and shoot some film.
Good luck!

 

[MadMan2k]

Agreed. Being an SLR, it doesn't really have any of what rangefinders 'stand for' - it's big, loud, has the 'tunnel vision' viewfinder that blacks out as you take the picture, a mirror and heavy shutter to clunk around, and (mostly) big lenses.

Not to say it's not a good camera, or that it wouldn't be acceptable for street, but it will probably draw more attention than a rangefinder would. I would love to have one along with the 31 and 77mm Limited prime lenses, but it wouldn't replace my Leica for street...

 

[sooner]

I just bought a K100d and love it, but there's no coming even close to a rangefinder for the subtlety of street shooting. These dSLR's just aren't small any way you slice it, and the pancake lens won't change that. But if you need encouraging, I'm very happy with my purchase, and the shake reduction function really works; I can get sharp pics handheld down to 1/6th of a second...if my kids keep still. Go for it, it's all good.

 

[rxmd]

These dSLR's just aren't small any way you slice it, and the pancake lens won't change that.

OK, let's compare:

Pentax K100D: 129 x 93 x 70mm
Leica M6: 138 x 80 x 38mm.

So the dimensions aren't that different. The width of the Pentax is actually less. The Pentax's added height mainly comes from the SLR bump in the middle (picture), so in frontal view it's not as massive as the 13mm difference suggests. The Pentax's added thickness comes mainly from the grip and partly from the mirror box housing. The mirror box can be compensated for by using a slimmer lens, such as the aforementioned Pancake (picture). The grip isn't that dramatic as it looks because it nestles into your hand, and many Leica photographers use a grip like Tom Abrahamson's, too.

A typical Leica setup like in this photo.net article with grip and external finder is not much smaller in the overall dimensions than a DSLR with a small lens, which has the grip built in and doesn't need an external finder. (A little anecdote: some three weeks ago I sat at a table with some photographers here in Berlin. One of them had come visiting Berlin and took pictures with an M8. Everybody had their cameras on the table. The M8 had the quite ugly Leica grip and the huge wideangle multifinder more or less fixed to it, because one of his lenses was the wideangle Tri-Elmar and didn't want to change finders along with the lenses. All in all it wasn't a small camera, and when he mentioned how he preferred rangefinders because they were so compact, he met with a lot of raised eyebrows, because he had the proof to the contrary right on the table.)

So anyway I think the size advantage of rangefinders is a little overrated; if you want a small SLR, you will have little problems getting one.

 

[iml]

Pentax K100D: 129 x 93 x 70mm
Leica M6: 138 x 80 x 38mm.

The K10D is somewhat bigger than the K100D, but yes, small DSLRs are easy to find.

I like the K10D, it has a nice viewfinder for an SLR, the ergonomics are good, and good quality secondhand lenses are plentiful. If I wanted a DSLR it's probably the one I would choose.

Ian

 

[Paul T.]

I guess the gemeral camera market is the opposite of this forum. Here, we like pro cameras in an amateur package - ie, lots of us like rangefinders becasuse they look like small tourist cameras. The average punter, though, seems to want a crappy camera that's big and looks like 'a pro's'! But it would be great if today's DSLR manufacturers would take a leaf out of mobile phone maker's books, and regard compactness as a priority.

The Olympus in particular uses a smaller sensor, yet the finished product is anything but small. I haven't tried the K10, but the *ist impressed me, both for its compactness and the way it would take a variety of vintage lenses.

 

[nksyoon]

You might also want to look at the Olympus 410. Here are some comparisons with a Canon 400D and other bodies from www.dpreview.com

Camera
Dimensions (W x H x D)
Body weight (inc. battery & card)

Olympus E-410 130 x 91 x 53 mm (5.1 x 3.6 x 2.1 in) 435 g (1.0 lb)
Nikon D40 126 x 94 x 64 mm (5.0 x 3.7 x 2.5 in) 524 g (1.2 lb)
Canon EOS 400D 127 x 94 x 65 mm (5.0 x 3.7 x 2.5 in) 556 g (1.2 lb)
Sony DSLR-A100 133 x 95 x 71 mm (5.2 x 3.7 x 2.8 in) 638 g (1.4 lb)
Pentax K100D 129 x 93 x 70 mm (5.0 x 3.7 x 2.8 in) 660 g (1.5 lb)
Nikon D80 132 x 103 x 77 mm (5.2 x 4.1 x 3.0 in) 668 g (1.5 lb)

 

[ChrisN]

The K10D is pretty good for an SLR, especially with the pancake lens, but the Leica M cameras are more compact and less obstrusive. The K100D (6MP) is considerably more compact than the K10D, and still has the shake-reduction feature. Here's the K10D against an M4.

And a sample from the K10D and pancake combination: one of this morning's equinox shots! I can shoot with the K10D with both eyes open. This gives me peripheral vision to the left of the camera, but not to the right (I'm right-eyed.) This allowed me to track the incoming cyclist for this shot.

 

[sooner]

I agree that the Leica with grip and finder isn't small, and that compared to some dSLR's the new cameras like the k100 are quite small (the Nikon d40 is even smaller). But I also don't care about comparing milimeters. When you raise a chunk of black camera to your face it isn't unobtrusive, and everyone will recognize a dSLR as a serious camera. So maybe we should really describe the rangefinder advantage here in terms of size and style, since most people will find a Bessa R or Canon QL17 not only smaller in actual size but also less noticeable in a photojournalistic kind of way.

 

[fgianni]

If they made a pancake lens for the E-401 you could actually get extremely close to a RF package for street shooting.
But at the moment the closest combination is probably K100 (not k10 which is significantly bigger) + pancake, and this I think is still a bit too big compared to an M system.

 

[fgianni]

I agree that the Leica with grip and finder isn't small, and that compared to some dSLR's the new cameras like the k100 are quite small (the Nikon d40 is even smaller). But I also don't care about comparing milimeters. When you raise a chunk of black camera to your face it isn't unobtrusive, and everyone will recognize a dSLR as a serious camera. So maybe we should really describe the rangefinder advantage here in terms of size and style, since most people will find a Bessa R or Canon QL17 not only smaller in actual size but also less noticeable in a photojournalistic kind of way.

I don't completely agree with yo here, people tends to associate a lot size with "pro camera", and an olympus 410 really is small! Shame they don't make small lenses for it!

 

[Socke]

I have a friend who is very camera shy. One day she asked me to take a picture of her with her small Sanyo digi and I couldn't because of slow AF and shutterlag. So I raised my D60 with batteriegrip and 24-70 and flash to take the shot. She backed away immediately and complained that my camera is like a machinegun.

Now I use my Contax Gs when I take pictures off Ama, no problem with a small, silver camera.

Probably because the G2 without big flash and batteriegrip doesn't cover my face as much as the dSLR does.

 

[jky]

As someone above had already mentioned - any camera can be used for street photography. I've used a *ist DS for 2.5 years - small, compact, great RAW - and the only thing that I find my RF is "better" at is shutter sound. Ergonomics was very good for my small hands, large enough VF for an entry level DSLR - I'd say take a look at a K100D (SR, lighter and smaller than K10D).

I can't really say that I missed photo opportunities because of a particular type of camera, but rather because of my own fear and insecurity pointing any camera at someone....

Cheers

 

[nightfly]

I don't know about you but I use my M4-P without any sort of accessory grips or finders. So it's like apples and oranges really. It's not tiny but it's really as small as you'd want a manual camera and where you can still be comfortable operating the controls.

Just get an M or a Bessa that has framelines for the lenses you commonly use and that keeps things small. I shoot 28mm and 35mm so the M4-P has me covered.

It could be psychological but shooting with my Leica I feel much less noticed than I did with even the tiny Pentax MX which is probably smaller, body wise than an M but larger of course with anything but a pancake lens which I found hard to use manually. And louder even as a relatively quiet SLR.

If you want the digital equivalent of a Leica, you'd probably be better off with one of the non-DSLR's like a Ricoh GR-D or similar. The lack of a shutter sound is a big benefit and looking like every other tourist with a point and shoot has it's benefits.

That 21mm lens they have for the Pentax looks pretty slick though. I just like film.

 

[ZorkiKat]

it's big, loud, has the 'tunnel vision' viewfinder that blacks out as you take the picture, a mirror and heavy shutter to clunk around, and (mostly) big lenses.

I have the Pentax K-10d for about a week now. All in all, I'd say that my experience with it is totally different from the DSLRs I've had (Fuji Finepix S2 pro, Canon 300D and 350D). It has a big viewfinder screen which shows the image bright and contrasty. Good for manual focusing with adapted M42 lenses. The shutter isn't at all heavy to trip, and seems to have little lag. Nor does it sound noisy- it doens'nt 'clunk' but rather 'whizzes' gently. The lenses used with it can be rather small, if one opts to use one of the classic M42 or K lenses. AF and zooms made for this camera can indeed be massive.

I'd say too that the Pentax K10D isn't much larger than a Leica M3. Or an Epson R-D1s for that matter. If I mounted an old Takumar 3,5/35mm on it, it would be as easy (or as hard?) to conceal as the Epson R-D1s. If I really wanted a small RF, I'd take a Zorki-1 with me

Small lenses can't really make the Pentax K10D any smaller- but these would make the camera many cms more compact and more kgs less lighter than if it had a short zoom. Here is my take on a 'pancake' on the K10D. The pancake is an Industar-50-2 from a Zenit:

If a really compact DigiSLR is preferred for street photography, the Canon 350D is hard to beat. An EOS 35 or 28mm (not too wide though) will make the package more compact. If a bit of increase in lens length isn't critical, using the 350D with its kit 18-55 lens would make the combo a very useful street shooter's tool.

Jay

 

[nksyoon]

I have a friend who is very camera shy. One day she asked me to take a picture of her with her small Sanyo digi and I couldn't because of slow AF and shutterlag. So I raised my D60 with batteriegrip and 24-70 and flash to take the shot. She backed away immediately and complained that my camera is like a machinegun.

I have the Canon 24-70/2.8 lens and it IS a machine-gun! And the lenshood is almost as long as the lens itself.

 

[anselwannab]

I've wondered why Pentax has the pancake lenses but not a "pancake" body. They should take one of their bodies, take off the flash and round that off. Pop up a flash and see how much volume it taken up. Look at taking off the grip bulge and really just look at what really needs to be there.

I agree the viewfinder epxerience will never be the same, but it could be a lot more compact.

 

[BillBingham2]

Are those electrical contacts exposed to the elements? Danger Will Robinson, Danger!

If you want a small street camera, take a look at the Ricoh digital GRD. You have the ability to lock the focus at 2.5 meters and with a effective 28mm lens, that's about right for close up street shots. It's small, if you lock the focus, very very fast. While I would prefer to be able to togle between say 1 meter, 3 meters, and infinity (like the snapshot skopar), it's better than most.

Still, IMHO, nothing beats a Bessa L 25/4 combo.

B2 (;->

 

[fgianni]

If you want a small street camera, take a look at the Ricoh digital GRD. You have the ability to lock the focus at 2.5 meters and with a effective 28mm lens, that's about right for close up street shots. It's small, if you lock the focus, very very fast. While I would prefer to be able to togle between say 1 meter, 3 meters, and infinity (like the snapshot skopar), it's better than most.

Still, IMHO, nothing beats a Bessa L 25/4 combo.

B2 (;->

Or maybe wait for the new sigma DP1 to come around, a lot smaller than any M body, APS sized foveon sensor and 16.6 (28mm equiv) prime lens, it definitely looks promising as a street shooter, and it looks just like another compact digital P&S
If it delivers what it promises it could be the ultimate digital street shooter, I could even leave my TC-1 at home!