LeicaMSeattle
Established
So our cameras should have "Made in Portugal, Finished in Germany" instead of "Made in Germany" engraved on the top cover?
veraikon
xpanner
I believe there are more than one reason who spoke for Portugal.
_ First the loan . In the seventies german wages were higher than in Japan . In order to competete german camera industry looked for manufacturing facilities outside Germany (Rollei, Voigtländer, Leitz) disappeared from mass market (Zeiss Ikon) or went in a niche (Linhof, Plaubel....).
Rollei went to Singapore and had a lot of problems (climate ...)
Leitz looked for a country where the loans were low, had a moderate climate and was near the market. In 1973 it was obvious that Portugal will chance to a democratic system. The engagement of Leitz was a long term project so this fact was important.
Portugal is also if you focus on an european- american market very "verkehrsgünstig" .
Also in Portugal you will find an european mentality .
_ second : Leitz Wetzlar was till th mid 80ies a family owned manufacturer.
If you pass Wetzlar (and Solms) you will recognize that it is only half an hour car drive from the potential battle field Hattenbach Ground zero, the most prominent potential battle ground of the cold war, away. The Leitz family knew the history what happend with the Dresden and Jena camera industy after 45.
So Portugal seemed secure and far away from a cold war battle ground.
_ First the loan . In the seventies german wages were higher than in Japan . In order to competete german camera industry looked for manufacturing facilities outside Germany (Rollei, Voigtländer, Leitz) disappeared from mass market (Zeiss Ikon) or went in a niche (Linhof, Plaubel....).
Rollei went to Singapore and had a lot of problems (climate ...)
Leitz looked for a country where the loans were low, had a moderate climate and was near the market. In 1973 it was obvious that Portugal will chance to a democratic system. The engagement of Leitz was a long term project so this fact was important.
Portugal is also if you focus on an european- american market very "verkehrsgünstig" .
Also in Portugal you will find an european mentality .
_ second : Leitz Wetzlar was till th mid 80ies a family owned manufacturer.
If you pass Wetzlar (and Solms) you will recognize that it is only half an hour car drive from the potential battle field Hattenbach Ground zero, the most prominent potential battle ground of the cold war, away. The Leitz family knew the history what happend with the Dresden and Jena camera industy after 45.
So Portugal seemed secure and far away from a cold war battle ground.
BillBingham2
Registered User
From a business perspective I think while they were happy with the Canadian expansion for lenses, they were not so with cameras. I am betting that they found managing the quality out of Canada much harder because it is so far from Europe. The wall still being up at the time, other than Northern Ireland (not stable at the time), Portugal was the lowest cost labor that was close. The Portuguese government might have given them some tax brakes also.
I was under the impression that it was after the SL2 (R3 and Minolta agreement) that SLR work went to Portugal. Glass might have been earlier but I'm not sure. Nikon was taking up my bandwidth back then.
B2 (;->
I was under the impression that it was after the SL2 (R3 and Minolta agreement) that SLR work went to Portugal. Glass might have been earlier but I'm not sure. Nikon was taking up my bandwidth back then.
B2 (;->
Particular
a.k.a. CNNY, disassembler
"Made in Germany" clearly only refers to the cover, not to the whole camera. The cover most likely obscures where it says "made in Portugal".
georgl
Member
"I just saw a video from L Camera TV that had a tour of Leica Germany where they were showing the assembly of M7 camera. They said "this is what we get from Portugal".It looked like 75% of the camera with only the top missing. It seems much of that camera is made there, and the final assembly takes place in Germany, where all the fine tuning so to speak takes place. I wonder how much of the M8 is made in Portugal."
This video is a little bit misleading, it just shows final assembly and testing - not the production itself.
Most of the parts are manufactured by suppliers (which quite often once were a part of Leitz) in Germany, starting with the milled metal parts of the M, the blocking mechanism of the shutter...
The R8 is >70% "Made in Germany", the M-series is propably quite similar.
Portugal makes accessoires and assembling of some components and I think the old die-cast-processes were made there (when they were based on zinc, I'm not sure if they can handle magnesium -the old top-plate was made in Portugal, since the TTL they are HSC-machined of brass in Germany).
The reason is simple: to cut labor costs, in the early 70s Leitz was already sold by the family and they tried to compete with cheaper products. In the end, they nearly lost everything, just like every company which tries to cut labor costs instead of investing into more efficient production.
The union rate in Hessen (the state of Wetzlar/Solms) for skilled workers (trained for optics/electronics/mechanics) is about 30-40€/hour, so higher than in Portugal, Canada or Japan - but in the end it only matters what they're capable of, how productive they are.
This video is a little bit misleading, it just shows final assembly and testing - not the production itself.
Most of the parts are manufactured by suppliers (which quite often once were a part of Leitz) in Germany, starting with the milled metal parts of the M, the blocking mechanism of the shutter...
The R8 is >70% "Made in Germany", the M-series is propably quite similar.
Portugal makes accessoires and assembling of some components and I think the old die-cast-processes were made there (when they were based on zinc, I'm not sure if they can handle magnesium -the old top-plate was made in Portugal, since the TTL they are HSC-machined of brass in Germany).
The reason is simple: to cut labor costs, in the early 70s Leitz was already sold by the family and they tried to compete with cheaper products. In the end, they nearly lost everything, just like every company which tries to cut labor costs instead of investing into more efficient production.
The union rate in Hessen (the state of Wetzlar/Solms) for skilled workers (trained for optics/electronics/mechanics) is about 30-40€/hour, so higher than in Portugal, Canada or Japan - but in the end it only matters what they're capable of, how productive they are.
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proenca
Proenca
Beg to differ.
People are confusing years and speculation in the light of PRESENT days and what we know NOW.
Lets see :
- loans . bad reason. Portugal was nearly broke at the time and was the second cause ( the lack of money ) for the 1974 revolution.
- away from war. bad reason. Portugal was fighting with the ex African colonies. although it was quite unlikely that Mozambique or Cape Vert planes ( which planes ??? ) would cross entire Africa and bomb Portugal. still, if you are betting on the mid 70's for Portugal due to peace, you are a dumb entrepreneur.
- european mentality . ridiculous reason. honestly, today, we consider ourselves europeans. and today we **KINDA** are. I say this due to the fact that I lived years and years away from Portugal ( although Im Portuguese ) and we are a bit on the late wagon from Europe but we are sort of getting there. now in the 70's ? Please. We were a country of farmers and retards. Technology for the average portuguese in the 70's was the curvature of the farming shovel.
- european tax system. bollocks. Portugal joined EEU in 1986. If you could predict that in 1973, 13 years before, man you were a genious. And trust me , Portugal was NO WHERE near EEU or tax system
- labour. decent reason. we were cheap and gov might given a hand for tax things.
- georgl : the R system specially the R8 was 95% PRODUCED in Portugal. It was built from scratch in the last days ONLY in Portugal and went just with the top and bottom plate missing to germany so they would finish there and could have the "MADE IN GERMANY" stamp. M system was assembled ( not produced ) as far as M7 in Portugal. Things are produced in Germany and somewhere else, shipped the parts here, assembled and off they go to get finished in Germany.
Labour would be my best bet ( cheap labour ) since the factory grew since it was created. Before was just an assembly line ( cutting down labour ) and with time production of some items were started here and even finished here. SL models, R7 and R8. I remember handling a R8 that clearly said MADE IN PORTUGAL.
Funny thing though, I was the other day in London talking to some photographers and when I said I was Portuguese one of them said "oh the best R8s are the Portuguese ones".
Which is ridiculous since Portuguese are known for loads of stuff EXCEPT for their meticulous and precision tasks. quite the oppposite actually
People are confusing years and speculation in the light of PRESENT days and what we know NOW.
Lets see :
- loans . bad reason. Portugal was nearly broke at the time and was the second cause ( the lack of money ) for the 1974 revolution.
- away from war. bad reason. Portugal was fighting with the ex African colonies. although it was quite unlikely that Mozambique or Cape Vert planes ( which planes ??? ) would cross entire Africa and bomb Portugal. still, if you are betting on the mid 70's for Portugal due to peace, you are a dumb entrepreneur.
- european mentality . ridiculous reason. honestly, today, we consider ourselves europeans. and today we **KINDA** are. I say this due to the fact that I lived years and years away from Portugal ( although Im Portuguese ) and we are a bit on the late wagon from Europe but we are sort of getting there. now in the 70's ? Please. We were a country of farmers and retards. Technology for the average portuguese in the 70's was the curvature of the farming shovel.
- european tax system. bollocks. Portugal joined EEU in 1986. If you could predict that in 1973, 13 years before, man you were a genious. And trust me , Portugal was NO WHERE near EEU or tax system
- labour. decent reason. we were cheap and gov might given a hand for tax things.
- georgl : the R system specially the R8 was 95% PRODUCED in Portugal. It was built from scratch in the last days ONLY in Portugal and went just with the top and bottom plate missing to germany so they would finish there and could have the "MADE IN GERMANY" stamp. M system was assembled ( not produced ) as far as M7 in Portugal. Things are produced in Germany and somewhere else, shipped the parts here, assembled and off they go to get finished in Germany.
Labour would be my best bet ( cheap labour ) since the factory grew since it was created. Before was just an assembly line ( cutting down labour ) and with time production of some items were started here and even finished here. SL models, R7 and R8. I remember handling a R8 that clearly said MADE IN PORTUGAL.
Funny thing though, I was the other day in London talking to some photographers and when I said I was Portuguese one of them said "oh the best R8s are the Portuguese ones".
Which is ridiculous since Portuguese are known for loads of stuff EXCEPT for their meticulous and precision tasks. quite the oppposite actually
georgl
Member
"the R system specially the R8 was 95% PRODUCED in Portugal. It was built from scratch in the last days ONLY in Portugal and went just with the top and bottom plate missing to germany so they would finish there and could have the "MADE IN GERMANY" stamp."
>70% "Made in Germany" don't necessarily mean >70% "Made by Leica in Solms". Most of the components are not made by Leica, not in Solms or Portugal but by suppliers. It's a question of production depth which is quite low at Leica today.
@ proenca
How would you rate working conditions in Portugal today? How well are those people (not engineers in offices...) people usually paid, health care etc. ? I was quite surprised to see that even Bentley workers in GB are not treated well in comparison to people in the German automotive industry.
>70% "Made in Germany" don't necessarily mean >70% "Made by Leica in Solms". Most of the components are not made by Leica, not in Solms or Portugal but by suppliers. It's a question of production depth which is quite low at Leica today.
@ proenca
How would you rate working conditions in Portugal today? How well are those people (not engineers in offices...) people usually paid, health care etc. ? I was quite surprised to see that even Bentley workers in GB are not treated well in comparison to people in the German automotive industry.
proenca
Proenca
You want to know the best part of it ? I've worked in 3 EU countries, the cream of the crop - UK for almost 4 years, France for 1.5 and Switzerland for almost 2.
Portugal in health care is tip of the top and free- Swiss is better though and by a great margin.
UK is one of the worst. But then again what we are comparing ?
Problem with Portugal and health care is waiting list. It take you AGES to get to a doctor. When you actually GET to one, its very very good.
UK theres minimal to none waiting list. Problem starts when you get to one. I think the UK medical degree is 30 minutes. They just teach you to write Paracetamol. Whatever you have, they say paracetamol.
Pay ? Its bad. Its bad compared with the EU. Min Salary in Portugal is 600 or 700 euros and a factory worker receive that or a bit more.
Cost of living is much lower, well sort of. Housing is much cheaper, but things like petrol, gas, are not.
A lt of petrol in London was 0.9 something. Here is 1.30 something.
I paid 200 pounds every three months for gas and electricity in London. I pay bit less than that for electricity alone per MONTH in Portugal.
So unless you are a millionare, theres no perfect country.
That means that my reasons for Leica to build a factory here are not the ones that people said. Perhaps it was in the past, but they arent valid at this moment.
One thing that could happen is specialized labour - assembling a M camera ( or most Leicas ) is done by hand, not by machine.
If we calculate the costs of training a new workforce in a cheaper country ( Romania, etc ) in the EU vs Quality against what you would save from taking the factory from Portugal ( we are still a low paid workforce by EU standards ) may not compensate to do so.
But this is now. And that wasnt the original question
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I always understood it was because Portugal was known for it's expertise in metal casting and this was predominantly why Leica chose have the alloy chassis of their cameras cast and machined in this part of the world.
I found this snippet when doing a google search ...
As an a side ... a lot of Harley Davidson castings, engine casings wheels etc, were done in an internationally respected Australian foundary near Adelaide for the same reasons.
I found this snippet when doing a google search ...
As an a side ... a lot of Harley Davidson castings, engine casings wheels etc, were done in an internationally respected Australian foundary near Adelaide for the same reasons.
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georgl
Member
@proenca
Thanks for the extensive answer ;-) I just wanted to know if the wage already contains health care, to make it more comparable.
I think Leica wouldn't do the same game again today, they somehow accepted their "outsider-status" and try to do the best with the German-based production. The plant in Portugal was build when they thought they could actually convince the average amateur to buy a Leica.
That's propably the reason why they didn't invest into new tools for zinc-die-cast parts of the M6TTL (and followers) but chose HSC-machining in Germany.
It definitely was not about know-how (Portugal was propably the cheapest place with some know-how), they had die-cast-processes before in Wetzlar and right now, starting from the machines to the tool-making and employee-qualification (there are specialized eduactional programms for 3-3 1/2 years) die-cast-processes "Made in Germany" are top-notch - from sub-gramm parts to gigantic ship-engine-blocks.
About 1000€/month would be about half of the wage paid in Germany for untrained (= no technical education) assembly work. Workers for Nikon (D3/D3x-assembly) get about 1800$/month, while their "colleagues" in Thailand get only 150$/month for the same work!!! While Panasonic/Canon seem to have very little problems with paying proper wages (you don't have to pay 5k$ to get "Made in Japan")
Thanks for the extensive answer ;-) I just wanted to know if the wage already contains health care, to make it more comparable.
I think Leica wouldn't do the same game again today, they somehow accepted their "outsider-status" and try to do the best with the German-based production. The plant in Portugal was build when they thought they could actually convince the average amateur to buy a Leica.
That's propably the reason why they didn't invest into new tools for zinc-die-cast parts of the M6TTL (and followers) but chose HSC-machining in Germany.
It definitely was not about know-how (Portugal was propably the cheapest place with some know-how), they had die-cast-processes before in Wetzlar and right now, starting from the machines to the tool-making and employee-qualification (there are specialized eduactional programms for 3-3 1/2 years) die-cast-processes "Made in Germany" are top-notch - from sub-gramm parts to gigantic ship-engine-blocks.
About 1000€/month would be about half of the wage paid in Germany for untrained (= no technical education) assembly work. Workers for Nikon (D3/D3x-assembly) get about 1800$/month, while their "colleagues" in Thailand get only 150$/month for the same work!!! While Panasonic/Canon seem to have very little problems with paying proper wages (you don't have to pay 5k$ to get "Made in Japan")
nrb
Nuno Borges
The plant is now 52000 square meters and employs 720 workers.
Its latter enlargement, 2013, cost 23 million euros.
Its latter enlargement, 2013, cost 23 million euros.
kuzano
Veteran
The Germans are afraid of Beach Invasions....
The Germans are afraid of Beach Invasions....
After all the allied Beach Invasions that lead to the defeat of Germany in "the brown shoe war" (WWII was known as the brown shoe war by US GI's), the Germans are fearful of Invasions from the Sea.
They don't have to cross any large bodies of water to get to Portugal, so the question is answered.
The Pacific Ocean AND the Atlantic Ocean must be crossed to reach Pacific Rim Countries and Islands. The overland route is an SOB.
That and the cheap labor. Likely Basque
The Germans are afraid of Beach Invasions....
After all the allied Beach Invasions that lead to the defeat of Germany in "the brown shoe war" (WWII was known as the brown shoe war by US GI's), the Germans are fearful of Invasions from the Sea.
They don't have to cross any large bodies of water to get to Portugal, so the question is answered.
The Pacific Ocean AND the Atlantic Ocean must be crossed to reach Pacific Rim Countries and Islands. The overland route is an SOB.
That and the cheap labor. Likely Basque
Monochrom
Well-known
for sure costs have to do with it, but also i think portuguese labour should be to german standards and that would be fulfullied also.
Germany is quite near portugal and that makes any control and upgrades quite easy...so it would be a fine match for leica to have their partners around the block.
Germany is quite near portugal and that makes any control and upgrades quite easy...so it would be a fine match for leica to have their partners around the block.