douglasboyd
enthusiast
Focus on the grain
Focus on the grain
In the darkroom days we used to focus the enlarger on the grain using a grain magnifier.
These days most of us scan with CCD and I noticed that even with Nikon 9000ED (4000dpi claimed) the grain is hard to see.
In film, the image is formed by exposing individual grains in the emulsion, and if you don't have enough scan resolution to resolve these, you are not getting the optimum image.
These examples clearly illustrate the advantage of drum scanning since at 5,500 dpi drum resolution, the grain is clearly resolved as in the old darkroom days. Personally I would prefer the 11,000 dpi scan since there are more pixels there for Neat Image's grain removal algorithms to work.
This post clearly illustrated the advantage of drum scanning.
==Doug
As you can see at 11K ppi (on this 6x7 frame it's 745 MegaPixel or 0.75 GigaPixel equivalent) is pretty much pointless on ASA400-class grainy film unless you want gigantic print that looks dense when inspecting it close. A 5500 ppi (186 MegaPixel equivalent) is where it's a good balance between usable detail and grain, IMHO at least.
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Margus[/QUOTE]
Focus on the grain
In the darkroom days we used to focus the enlarger on the grain using a grain magnifier.
These days most of us scan with CCD and I noticed that even with Nikon 9000ED (4000dpi claimed) the grain is hard to see.
In film, the image is formed by exposing individual grains in the emulsion, and if you don't have enough scan resolution to resolve these, you are not getting the optimum image.
These examples clearly illustrate the advantage of drum scanning since at 5,500 dpi drum resolution, the grain is clearly resolved as in the old darkroom days. Personally I would prefer the 11,000 dpi scan since there are more pixels there for Neat Image's grain removal algorithms to work.
This post clearly illustrated the advantage of drum scanning.
==Doug
As you can see at 11K ppi (on this 6x7 frame it's 745 MegaPixel or 0.75 GigaPixel equivalent) is pretty much pointless on ASA400-class grainy film unless you want gigantic print that looks dense when inspecting it close. A 5500 ppi (186 MegaPixel equivalent) is where it's a good balance between usable detail and grain, IMHO at least.
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Margus[/QUOTE]
Dirk
Privatier
How much does a drum scan cost per negative, and where can I get it done?
scottyb70
Well-known
There is a guy on eBay that does 600mb scans with a Heidelberg drurm scanner. I used him a couple of times , very professional.
emmef2
Established
first, those are really beautiful images, and I am glad to see the drum scans make them look as good as they are!
Thank you for sharing your work and findings with us
Thank you for sharing your work and findings with us
kanzlr
Hexaneur
not to get too far off topic here, but this is a 6x6 scan of FP4 done with the rather new Plustek 120 scanner, along with a 100% crop from the sky. Grain is clearly visible I'd say.
spkennedy3000
www.simonkennedy.net
I did a comparison between a v750 and a drum scan here: http://www.simonkennedy.net/blog/architectural-photography-2/4x5-flatbed-vs-drum-scan/
spkennedy3000
www.simonkennedy.net
Fantastic images by the way.
tsiklonaut
Well-known
Nothing's fully dependable in the drumscanning world unless you have mighty big budget and can afford brand new drumscanners still in production (Aztek, ICG, Heidelberg and few others).
I get my critical parts from Denmark, ex-ScanView technicians and engineers have picked up the remains.
Some of the parts you can source independently by inspecting their model numbers and see if you can find similar or equivalent.
IMHO mechanical parts are doable (even using CNC-engineering guys when you have to) but the biggest worry is the electrical boards, if something goes wrong there, you're in deep waters.
Some of it depends how good maintenance you give to the scanner and also precision and performance is highly depending on it. I.e. PMT-bias adjustments, drum mechanism alginment, lubing rails, replacing o-rings, clean optical elements and re-check their alignment etc.
I'm a physicist by education so I know few things about the tech thus I do my own maintenance. Here's my scanner getting some regular maintenance:
Here you see PMT-board - 3 large PMTs are placed inside the big metal box and marked accordingly (RGB colours):
PMT-modules - note the serial numbers how few of those were made after this scanner has been already years in production. And it's 3 of those modules for each scanner, so it works out around just 30-40 scanners made and sold worldwide:
However there are things beyond by skillset, such as the electronic boards that I don't have any schematics for so for example I sent this particular board for fault removal and modification to Denmark who have the design know-how and specialized benches to test their boards:
So Drum Scanners aren't exacly a "walk in the park" type of convenience machines
But when they are maintained and calibrated to their best of their ability and run under skillful operation - results-wise nothing comes close to them. PMT-rendered signal - it's the most "analog" way of digitizing your film work IMO.
Yes, just google "Drum Scanning" and you'll get the picture of the offerings. There are numerous high-end services worldwide. As you notice mostly they are very costly (for the reasons stated already stated in this thread - experience, skills, worktime involved and high running costs) but the results are well worth it if you have found a trustworthy and proven drumscanning service. Just think how much of your best photos are worth and make your own calculations and decisions.
I also do offer independent Drum Scanning Service in Europe for very affordible prices (divide those abovementioned prices by roughly 4 and you come into my pricing range - actually I don't charge per MB, I charge per wet-mount startsheet + frames fitted below that works out alot cheaper for the client and easier for me).
Margus
tsiklonaut
Well-known
Joonas by tsiklonaut, on Flickr
Motionless motion... by tsiklonaut, on Flickr
Gone Swimming by tsiklonaut, on Flickr
Crops by tsiklonaut, on Flickr
Within Space by tsiklonaut, on Flickr
kanzlr
Hexaneur
awesome images, and cudos for your scanner self service. I admire your skill (on more than a few levels).
tsiklonaut
Well-known
douglasboyd
enthusiast
not to get too far off topic here, but this is a 6x6 scan of FP4 done with the rather new Plustek 120 scanner, along with a 100% crop from the sky. Grain is clearly visible I'd say.
I look forward to learning more about the new Plustek 120 scanner. But this picture looks very grainy compared to other Ilford HP4 images on this site. HP4 was discontinued in 1989. I wonder what caused all the grain in this picture.
==Doug
huddy
Well-known
I wish I lived in Europe as drum scanning with you would be very affordable. I'm afraid I don't have the knowhow to maintain a drum scanner...
kanzlr
Hexaneur
FP4+, not HP4
tsiklonaut
Well-known
Ilford FP4+ is a very decent film indeed. Grain is fairly visible for an ASA100-class film, but definitely not excessive. The film has an interesting tonality.
Winter Frame by tsiklonaut, on Flickr
Winter Sea Isles by tsiklonaut, on Flickr
Winter Beach by tsiklonaut, on Flickr
Winter Frame by tsiklonaut, on Flickr
Winter Sea Isles by tsiklonaut, on Flickr
Winter Beach by tsiklonaut, on Flickr
tsiklonaut
Well-known
Am I really the only fool in the village apreciating this awesome PMT-technology?
Couple of more drumscans:
Torres del Paine, Chile by tsiklonaut, on Flickr
Lake Võrtsjärv, Estonia by tsiklonaut, on Flickr
Lake by tsiklonaut, on Flickr
Looking for soul-fuel by tsiklonaut, on Flickr
Couple of more drumscans:
Torres del Paine, Chile by tsiklonaut, on Flickr
Lake Võrtsjärv, Estonia by tsiklonaut, on Flickr
Lake by tsiklonaut, on Flickr
Looking for soul-fuel by tsiklonaut, on Flickr
j j
Well-known
Am I really the only fool in the village apreciating this awesome PMT-technology?
Only you using? Quite possibly so. Few people have the expertise to operate and maintain machinery like yours (I know I don't) not to mention the space or spare cash.
Only you appreciating? Far from it. I suspect everyone who sees your photos appreciates not only the technology but also your art and craft. I know that I smile each time this thread (or your Flickr) reappears with a new batch of loveliness. Keep them coming!
dave lackey
Veteran
Noll
Well-known
Am I really the only fool in the village apreciating this awesome PMT-technology?
I suspect you have more than a few readers around here salivating at your results! But not many of us have stepped up to the plate even to mail out some negs to a drum scan service (I might, someday...)
ashfaque
Learning
Hello Margus,
I'm stunned. I feel like throwing away the free Epson scanner I got few months ago. Once I'm back to UK, I hope to send some old (from 80's) negs (35 and MF) to you.
Do you have any (youtube) video as to how you scan them or in general a brief overview about PMT scanning techniques? I don't have money, time or intetion to get into such highly technical stuff. I am just very curious about the whole machine and the process after seeing your stunning images and the accompanying notes you've kindly posted.
Bests,
Ashfaque
I'm stunned. I feel like throwing away the free Epson scanner I got few months ago. Once I'm back to UK, I hope to send some old (from 80's) negs (35 and MF) to you.
Do you have any (youtube) video as to how you scan them or in general a brief overview about PMT scanning techniques? I don't have money, time or intetion to get into such highly technical stuff. I am just very curious about the whole machine and the process after seeing your stunning images and the accompanying notes you've kindly posted.
Bests,
Ashfaque