tobinharris
Established
Hello R-D1 forum
Well, its almost been a week since I got my R-D1 to discover life beyond "point and shoot".
One thing that's puzzling me is what to aim for with photoRAW, or any other PP toolset.
I recently went through a set ofimages at least 3 times, and struggled to get output I was happy with. Heres he set... http://www.flickr.com/photos/63003847@N00/sets/72157626983677374/with/5842558225/
(Taken with r-d1, cv 25mm f4 Color skopar, evening between 5pm and midnight, UK summer)
Exposures I kinda like...
The Candle by tobinharris, on Flickr
The birthday boy by tobinharris, on Flickr
On the balcony by tobinharris, on Flickr
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I don't like these... Balance seems off, but hard to get contrast and clarity.
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Looking down by tobinharris, on Flickr
Handing out cake by tobinharris, on Flickr
Chilling' by tobinharris, on Flickr
I've learnt that I shouldnt blow the whites too much, and want achieve good contrast and clarity. But it's so tough finding a balance. And I've a lot to learn about metering and exposure, but I'm reading about the basics all the time now.
Where would you recommend I learn more about how to get this right? or is it just about taking time, practice?
As always, any thought, criticism, help appreciated
T
Well, its almost been a week since I got my R-D1 to discover life beyond "point and shoot".
One thing that's puzzling me is what to aim for with photoRAW, or any other PP toolset.
I recently went through a set ofimages at least 3 times, and struggled to get output I was happy with. Heres he set... http://www.flickr.com/photos/63003847@N00/sets/72157626983677374/with/5842558225/
(Taken with r-d1, cv 25mm f4 Color skopar, evening between 5pm and midnight, UK summer)
Exposures I kinda like...
The Candle by tobinharris, on Flickr
The birthday boy by tobinharris, on Flickr
On the balcony by tobinharris, on Flickr
-
-
I don't like these... Balance seems off, but hard to get contrast and clarity.
-
-
Looking down by tobinharris, on Flickr
Handing out cake by tobinharris, on Flickr
Chilling' by tobinharris, on Flickr
I've learnt that I shouldnt blow the whites too much, and want achieve good contrast and clarity. But it's so tough finding a balance. And I've a lot to learn about metering and exposure, but I'm reading about the basics all the time now.
Where would you recommend I learn more about how to get this right? or is it just about taking time, practice?
As always, any thought, criticism, help appreciated
T
--
Well-known
I am no master developer (by far) but I like the development in "looking down".
Personally I prefer more vignetting visible when shooting rangefinder.
Your diligence is admirable but (with the risk of sounding like an old f@rt) take care not to loose the joy of shooting and developing. One of the reasons I like PhotoRAW so much is the ability to create strikingly different outputs with very few clicks.
Is this Leeds btw?
...Xpanded
Personally I prefer more vignetting visible when shooting rangefinder.
Your diligence is admirable but (with the risk of sounding like an old f@rt) take care not to loose the joy of shooting and developing. One of the reasons I like PhotoRAW so much is the ability to create strikingly different outputs with very few clicks.
Is this Leeds btw?
...Xpanded
back alley
IMAGES
i like simple...
i crop to my liking
then either convert to b&w or keep the colour
i use levels and play till i like what i see and then a very little unsharp mask
that's it
on pse 8 on my macbook.
i crop to my liking
then either convert to b&w or keep the colour
i use levels and play till i like what i see and then a very little unsharp mask
that's it
on pse 8 on my macbook.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I think shooting with digital is every bit as much a learning experience as mastering film and darkroom etc. When you get a new/different digicam there's a learning process involved for understanding and maximising it's output to suit yourself no matter how good your post processing skills may be. Digicams aren't the soulless automatons they're made out to be IMO ... each one has it's own sweet spot regarding ISO along with other settings and when you find that and combine it with suitable post processing it's a little like mastering a particular film and developer combination.
I think you're being a little hard on yourself and maybe expecting too much too soon.
I think you're being a little hard on yourself and maybe expecting too much too soon.
tobinharris
Established
Hi guys
Thanks for the feedback. Ok, I'll try and be more patient with myself
@xpanded... yup, it's Leeds! Do you have a gallery online btw?
@back_alley... thanks. That's pretty much what I'm doing in photoRAW - monotone, then tweaking curve/levels until I think it looks good. Love your photo blog, some nice story telling there.
@Keith... thanks. nice images too!
Thanks for the feedback. Ok, I'll try and be more patient with myself
@xpanded... yup, it's Leeds! Do you have a gallery online btw?
@back_alley... thanks. That's pretty much what I'm doing in photoRAW - monotone, then tweaking curve/levels until I think it looks good. Love your photo blog, some nice story telling there.
@Keith... thanks. nice images too!
250swb
Well-known
If this is your first experience of post procesing you are doing a fine job.
A lot of the famous photographs you see from the likes of Cartier Bresson etc have had a lot of work done on them in the darkroom to balance tones and direct the eye. Such subtle manipulation is called 'dodging and burning', where dodging is lightening an area, and burning is making it darker. Its a standard technique especially for B&W and not 'cheating', so if your software has this facility its worth getting to know how it works.
As an example, in your 'looking down' image, my instinct would be to bring out the ribbon of the canal running across the frame by darkening the area of the buildings and yard at the top of the picture, and then lighten the water and give it more contrast to bring the reflections out more. Your eye will then be drawn to the canal and not the derelict site. Likewise 'Chilling' could have more contrast in the figure, and maybe make the figure a tad lighter.
Don't take my examples as a rule because its up to you how they are interpreted, but its pretty much how the majority of the fine B&W photographs you see throughout the history of photography are achieved. At a recent exhibition of Don McCullin's work there was a test print exhibited with maybe twenty notes to lighten and darken areas of an image that he had made for the printer to follow, and that was for a seemingly straight out the camera documentary war photograph. So if there is one tip, it is to work with the tones, don't just leave them in the same balance that the camera records because they often won't match what you saw in your minds eye.
Steve
A lot of the famous photographs you see from the likes of Cartier Bresson etc have had a lot of work done on them in the darkroom to balance tones and direct the eye. Such subtle manipulation is called 'dodging and burning', where dodging is lightening an area, and burning is making it darker. Its a standard technique especially for B&W and not 'cheating', so if your software has this facility its worth getting to know how it works.
As an example, in your 'looking down' image, my instinct would be to bring out the ribbon of the canal running across the frame by darkening the area of the buildings and yard at the top of the picture, and then lighten the water and give it more contrast to bring the reflections out more. Your eye will then be drawn to the canal and not the derelict site. Likewise 'Chilling' could have more contrast in the figure, and maybe make the figure a tad lighter.
Don't take my examples as a rule because its up to you how they are interpreted, but its pretty much how the majority of the fine B&W photographs you see throughout the history of photography are achieved. At a recent exhibition of Don McCullin's work there was a test print exhibited with maybe twenty notes to lighten and darken areas of an image that he had made for the printer to follow, and that was for a seemingly straight out the camera documentary war photograph. So if there is one tip, it is to work with the tones, don't just leave them in the same balance that the camera records because they often won't match what you saw in your minds eye.
Steve
LCT
ex-newbie
You could have exposed this pic by + 1 EV imho. Blown highlights are less a problem in B&W than color. Also the Epson raw converters are rather ancient now and are significantly noisier than later competitors like Capture One or Lightroom 3, which can be a problem if you have to overexpose in PP.
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RFH
rfhansen.wordpress.com
For what it's worth, here's my two cents on the subject:
I find Photoraw to give results more to my liking than Camera Raw, particularly when it comes to colour rendition, sharpness and BW conversions.
My usual RD-1 workflow:
Open in Photoraw > adjust colour/WB > +1 or +2 edge enhance > +1 or +2 contrast.
Open in Photoshop > dodge & burn > sometimes a bit of channel mixer > output sharpening.
I have found that dodge & burn covers 80% of my PS needs. It's a great tool - sort of like pulling localized curves. And as someone else wrote, it's the perfect way to create 'paths' through the image for the viewer's eye to follow.
I find Photoraw to give results more to my liking than Camera Raw, particularly when it comes to colour rendition, sharpness and BW conversions.
My usual RD-1 workflow:
Open in Photoraw > adjust colour/WB > +1 or +2 edge enhance > +1 or +2 contrast.
Open in Photoshop > dodge & burn > sometimes a bit of channel mixer > output sharpening.
I have found that dodge & burn covers 80% of my PS needs. It's a great tool - sort of like pulling localized curves. And as someone else wrote, it's the perfect way to create 'paths' through the image for the viewer's eye to follow.
tobinharris
Established
tobinharris
Established
Thanks Steve, I've played around before but never taken it "seriously" until now.
Haha, yes, I always thought it was cheating. But I'm now starting to aim for "creating a piece of art through great shooting AND great post processing".
I just read about dodging and burning. Crikey, that sounds perfect. And it probably much faster than trying to isolate colour ranges on the levels graph and boost/cut them. Dodge/Burn will be much more subtle.
You're Flickr stream is something else, by the way. Amazing stuff.
Nice idea. I love the idea of story telling with images, and creating a line for the eye to follow makes sense.
Perfect. I was really thinking that this would be the way forward, nice to have it validated.
Cheers
Tobin
tobinharris
Established
--
Well-known
Only here on RFF. Some R-D1s too.
peterm1
Veteran
OK talking about post processing - I use a couple of techniques that work really well - but they depend on the situation so you have to use trial and error till you get a sense of when to use what. If you are serious I would recommend thinking about getting something like Photoshop Elements as this kind of software allows much more poweful editing and post processing than anything available in even the better RAW conversion tools, possibly excluding Lightroom. If you were to do this were are some tips on techniques.
Learn to use "Selections" in Photoshop or whatever post processing software you use. Often different parts of an image need different treatments and selecting parts of the image to work on is a powerful way of achieving this.
"Layers" are really valuable too.
For example, instead of using selections in the above situation you can make a darker duplicate layer of the original and then using "layer masks" erase parts of the darker top layer to let the lighter background layer show thru where itneeds to - another way of handling different parts of the image differently. Same techniqure can be applied to things like contrast adjustment, saturation adjustment, sharpening etc so its applied selectively. (Its all pretty easy once you understand it but does your mind in when you are still learning.)
Another powerful aspect of layers are "blending modes". These affect the way different layers interact with each other. For example. Make a duplicate layer and change its blending mode to "multiply". The mid tones and darks immediately become darker. Highlights are unaffected. Great to use as a quick fix when an image is over-exposed. Do the reverse for too dark images by using the "screen" blending mode.
Learn to use some basic tools like the histogram. Study how to read them and how to adjust them. Then learn how to apply the curves tool which is one of the most powerful tools for adjusting tone in an image.
Someone here menitoned vignetting. I use this a lot in pictures fo people - it draws your attention to them and away from distracting elements. DO an internet search and you will find out how to do this.
Learn to use "Selections" in Photoshop or whatever post processing software you use. Often different parts of an image need different treatments and selecting parts of the image to work on is a powerful way of achieving this.
"Layers" are really valuable too.
For example, instead of using selections in the above situation you can make a darker duplicate layer of the original and then using "layer masks" erase parts of the darker top layer to let the lighter background layer show thru where itneeds to - another way of handling different parts of the image differently. Same techniqure can be applied to things like contrast adjustment, saturation adjustment, sharpening etc so its applied selectively. (Its all pretty easy once you understand it but does your mind in when you are still learning.)
Another powerful aspect of layers are "blending modes". These affect the way different layers interact with each other. For example. Make a duplicate layer and change its blending mode to "multiply". The mid tones and darks immediately become darker. Highlights are unaffected. Great to use as a quick fix when an image is over-exposed. Do the reverse for too dark images by using the "screen" blending mode.
Learn to use some basic tools like the histogram. Study how to read them and how to adjust them. Then learn how to apply the curves tool which is one of the most powerful tools for adjusting tone in an image.
Someone here menitoned vignetting. I use this a lot in pictures fo people - it draws your attention to them and away from distracting elements. DO an internet search and you will find out how to do this.
tobinharris
Established
Many thanks for sharing. Great tips, I'll give them a shot.
I'm currently trying a demo of Apple Aperture, so I'll see if it supports selections, and any kind of layering. I guess these tools give you great control over the image on a section-by-section basis.
I've got a bit of Photoshop experience so I could start using that if Aperture doesn't do the job.
Will get to grips with the histogram! It looks scary.
T