TTL
Member
EXPANDING LEICA MARKET THROUGH PRICING ADJUSTMENTS
Has Leica priced only for the super rich not the middle class or even worker-who-can-save? With M10's going USED at $4,5000 TO $5,500 most people can not afford them. Even used only the super rich can afford them.
If they had sold the new M10's around $4,500, about $2,000 above the $2,500 that the Asian cameras sell for, then used the Leica would sell for $2,000 to $3,000 where many could afford them.
Thus a used Leica's price would compete with new Asian camera prices. This would give Leica a double market to sell to, both new and used, and greater market penetration (more sales), and a reason to expand their repair department which is greatly needed.
ECONOMIC SYSTEM PRICE POINT AND SIZE OF THE MARKET
If you can sell the trade-in camera, then it is normally easier to sell a new camera, is it not? By hurting the trade-in used market with high priced used cameras, it must be harder to sell new $7,000 cameras. Since the used cameras are selling at $4,5000+ then it could only be to a few very rich people - thus used cameras compete with Leica's own new camera market. I realize it is not this simple but I am sure you get my point. Could Leica could end up like Pentax & Rollei?
Leica might have a better "economic system", at a more reasonable new price and greater sales, with the accompanying better/larger repair department. The existing repair department could not fully fix my Tri-Elmar 28-35-50 lens.
Is there demand at $3,500 to $4,500 new body price, for an M11? At $3,500 you would likely convert some new-camera Asian-camera buyers to new-camera Leica-camera buyers. That is about 40% more for a body than the Asian market can provide at $2,500. At $4,500+ you probably loose this convert.
LOCAL SALES
Probably due to this overpricing effect on both bodies and lenses, no camera store sells Leica in my home town. My town is in a CSA (combined statistical area) population of 1,096,961. Our top camera store told me years ago they could not carry a camera unless they could sell ONE a month, so they dropped Leica. Lower used prices would give camera stores something to sell profitably (selling new cameras is hardly profitable I am told) and keep them in business.
TRADE-IN COMPETITION & PRICING
Trade-ins are NOT reasonably priced, when they are priced above the price of new Asian cameras, cameras that frankly exceed the capabilities of any Leica. But of course the Asian cameras are a horror story of complexity to operate, so many users dislike them. Asian digital cameras remove the sense of being an artist and turn you into a technician.
ALTERNATIVES & COLOR FEATURE
As now priced, Leica sends me to Panasonic S1, S1-R, S1-H or better yet Nikon Z6, Z7 which has very very close to the Leica-Euro color hues when using old Leica lenses as reports show with pictures.
Sadly with M10-R the Leica-Euro-Color may be lost in order to extend the dynamic range of the smaller pixel sensor? Why not give a Euro-Color Leica-Look check box in the menus to select this color saturation level and loose the one or one-half stop of brightness that is needed to achieve it? As long as the dark areas go black, and not to Noise, then it would be acceptable for many users.
Please take my comments as a hope for an expanded Leica market. I also realize, that the market resolves all issues, and has a sort of fairness all its own that we must submit to. I do enjoy the economic study.
Has Leica priced only for the super rich not the middle class or even worker-who-can-save? With M10's going USED at $4,5000 TO $5,500 most people can not afford them. Even used only the super rich can afford them.
If they had sold the new M10's around $4,500, about $2,000 above the $2,500 that the Asian cameras sell for, then used the Leica would sell for $2,000 to $3,000 where many could afford them.
Thus a used Leica's price would compete with new Asian camera prices. This would give Leica a double market to sell to, both new and used, and greater market penetration (more sales), and a reason to expand their repair department which is greatly needed.
ECONOMIC SYSTEM PRICE POINT AND SIZE OF THE MARKET
If you can sell the trade-in camera, then it is normally easier to sell a new camera, is it not? By hurting the trade-in used market with high priced used cameras, it must be harder to sell new $7,000 cameras. Since the used cameras are selling at $4,5000+ then it could only be to a few very rich people - thus used cameras compete with Leica's own new camera market. I realize it is not this simple but I am sure you get my point. Could Leica could end up like Pentax & Rollei?
Leica might have a better "economic system", at a more reasonable new price and greater sales, with the accompanying better/larger repair department. The existing repair department could not fully fix my Tri-Elmar 28-35-50 lens.
Is there demand at $3,500 to $4,500 new body price, for an M11? At $3,500 you would likely convert some new-camera Asian-camera buyers to new-camera Leica-camera buyers. That is about 40% more for a body than the Asian market can provide at $2,500. At $4,500+ you probably loose this convert.
LOCAL SALES
Probably due to this overpricing effect on both bodies and lenses, no camera store sells Leica in my home town. My town is in a CSA (combined statistical area) population of 1,096,961. Our top camera store told me years ago they could not carry a camera unless they could sell ONE a month, so they dropped Leica. Lower used prices would give camera stores something to sell profitably (selling new cameras is hardly profitable I am told) and keep them in business.
TRADE-IN COMPETITION & PRICING
Trade-ins are NOT reasonably priced, when they are priced above the price of new Asian cameras, cameras that frankly exceed the capabilities of any Leica. But of course the Asian cameras are a horror story of complexity to operate, so many users dislike them. Asian digital cameras remove the sense of being an artist and turn you into a technician.
ALTERNATIVES & COLOR FEATURE
As now priced, Leica sends me to Panasonic S1, S1-R, S1-H or better yet Nikon Z6, Z7 which has very very close to the Leica-Euro color hues when using old Leica lenses as reports show with pictures.
Sadly with M10-R the Leica-Euro-Color may be lost in order to extend the dynamic range of the smaller pixel sensor? Why not give a Euro-Color Leica-Look check box in the menus to select this color saturation level and loose the one or one-half stop of brightness that is needed to achieve it? As long as the dark areas go black, and not to Noise, then it would be acceptable for many users.
Please take my comments as a hope for an expanded Leica market. I also realize, that the market resolves all issues, and has a sort of fairness all its own that we must submit to. I do enjoy the economic study.
valdas
Veteran
I guess when it comes to market segmentation there are more considerations than just income level. Consumer behavior is driven by their income level to the great extent, but there are other factors. That’s why it is not so easy so judge what’s right or wrong with their pricing strategy...
TTL
Member
Yes, it is very complex. I am just giving one of the possible viewpoints. Pricing is an art as well as a science.
One Entrepreneur-ing book I read said to look for price points, that once you hit them, a little lower or a little higher, result in big increases in sales.
One Entrepreneur-ing book I read said to look for price points, that once you hit them, a little lower or a little higher, result in big increases in sales.
Larry Cloetta
Veteran
Euro-color?
raydm6
Yay! Cameras! 🙈🙉🙊┌( ಠ_ಠ)┘ [◉"]
It's not so much the Leica prices that bother me (although I would not pay what they are asking for a limited life-cycle product), but rather, it's just that I'm not that enamored with the digital output I see from these cameras; albeit, with exceptions.
Out to Lunch
Ventor
Amen to that: a limited market segment + high profit margins. Add to that the following marginal detail: in the rangefinder segment they have a monopoly which allows them to manipulate prices. Cheers, OtL
Bill Clark
Veteran
I believe what has changed the market for photography equipment are smart phones and, to a lesser degree, tablet computers. They have put stress on photography equipment manufacturers as well as who, what, and why professional photographers are getting hired.
It seems like Leica is in a high end market. It would be easier pushing water up hill than to get lower prices thinking that more will buy the products.
It is the basics of image making that most don’t understand or care about understanding and looking for it when the desire is there to make a photograph. Get ‘er done and get ‘er done real quiclky.
I see lots of snap shots.
It seems like Leica is in a high end market. It would be easier pushing water up hill than to get lower prices thinking that more will buy the products.
It is the basics of image making that most don’t understand or care about understanding and looking for it when the desire is there to make a photograph. Get ‘er done and get ‘er done real quiclky.
I see lots of snap shots.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
Everyone who is placing person buying 4500 USD camera to super rich category is communist.
Where I'm it is not this common. I see people in townhouses with Porsche. Many very many have expensive cars. I see folding bikes sold for priced of used M10 and I'm having hard time to imagine super rich cugging away on folding bike. We had 15K boat. As many others nothing special families.
Yes, Leica is not professional cameras maker anymore. Not their cameras, nor their service are. But many in middle class could afford it. It is nice and it is still taking pictures. Where I'm people are spending thousands on dogs and vacations. Not to mention overpriced renovations.
Where I'm it is not this common. I see people in townhouses with Porsche. Many very many have expensive cars. I see folding bikes sold for priced of used M10 and I'm having hard time to imagine super rich cugging away on folding bike. We had 15K boat. As many others nothing special families.
Yes, Leica is not professional cameras maker anymore. Not their cameras, nor their service are. But many in middle class could afford it. It is nice and it is still taking pictures. Where I'm people are spending thousands on dogs and vacations. Not to mention overpriced renovations.
p.giannakis
Pan Giannakis
Franko
Established
The world uses the cellphone for photography now. Not many companies will invest in r&d for products that don't interest the masses. Leica has identified their niche market and survives, at least for cameras on that. We are fortunate that the few manufacturers left give us good alternatives. As a long time OM 1 user, I was sorry to hear of the demise of Olympus.
TTL
Member
Olympus was like one of the first to truly downsize during the 1970's beating Nikon in that direction. For people with big hands it was maybe too small though I remember them fondly as a friend of mine bought into their system and liked it.
JeffS7444
Well-known
Leica has had a low-key discount program in place for many years: Demo or factory-refurbished cameras sold by Leica via your dealer can save you a decent amount of money. Like-new gear is most expensive, but further savings can be had if you're okay with equipment which shows minor wear and tear. They typically include 1-year warranty. I imagine M10s would still be fairly scarce, but M240s ought to be available at attractive prices (by Leica standards).
Advantage of this approach is that the buyer gets the full, undiluted product, and the cachet that comes with owning a luxury product. And if quantities of discounted products are limited, probably so too is the market for them.
Advantage of this approach is that the buyer gets the full, undiluted product, and the cachet that comes with owning a luxury product. And if quantities of discounted products are limited, probably so too is the market for them.
FrozenInTime
Well-known
If the OP wants Leica color without the M sticker price, the CL and SL2 bridge the gap.
TTL
Member
aizan
Veteran
You’re missing a big point: Dr. Kaufmann’s saving Leica from the brink was based on making it a luxury good. Veblen goods are ones where you increase demand by increasing the price. If you’re dissatisfied with their service, that’s another matter.
Haha, yeah... I agree 100%. Don’t travel with a family one year or buy a gently used car and you can buy a Leica. If you can’t do those things in the first place, then forget the Leica. There’s nothing wrong with using cameras that cost a lot less. There are so many good deals these days that I cannot bring myself to buy a Leica.
Ambro51
Collector/Photographer
......as long as there are retired Dentists Leica prices will never go down.
D
Deleted member 65559
Guest
Ko, Is it not possible for you to make a point without calling people names?
I remember a time when I had an M9 and my dentist had the M8. It was the last I felt successful ...
