charjohncarter
Veteran
One thing about not falling for the 'this than that' syndrome, Is when you own a lens/camera for a really long time you get to know it. My Spotmatic I have used so much and for so long that I am hard wired to the ergonomics (I just know which way to turn the A ring, focus, shutter dial). Also, my Konica C35 I just know that a colorful scene in open shade will look great (or at least it will look great with certain films), etc. My new DSLRs are a hassle, plus they are different every year so it is a new experience.
Konicas C35 and FujiSuperiaXtra400:
Konicas C35 and FujiSuperiaXtra400:
JeffGreene
(@)^(@)
I agree entirely with you, but in my case, I've never quite been content with the equipment I've worked with. I don't have that feeling with the new Rollei. I'm sure much is attributable to my general lack of talent, as many of the talented people on this board could reasonably conclude, but over the years I'd borrowed my friend's camera (SL66), in a way, I guess, to rationalize not having to purchase my own. After approximately 15 yrs of using it with my lenses, I realized that I'd gotten to know that camera, and felt its absence keenly when he moved away. When he offered to sell it to me, it was a no-brainer, although it required some sacrifice on my part. Since I've owned it, I find myself using it more and more. My Mamiya 6 used to travel everywhere with me. Now it's the Rollei. It requires more setup time, unlike tha Mamiya, and rather than being annoyed by this, I find its use has led me to spend more time thinking about the pictures I'll be making with it. I'd gotten lazy with the Mamiya 6 thinking that if I left the exposure to the camera, I could spend more time thinking about composition.
Sorry to run on so
, time to grade some papers and then I'll be off to make some pictures. Have a great day! 
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
In more than 5 decades of playing with cameras and cars. I have developed priorities. I suspect that I have owned about 120-130 cars in that time, ranging from Citroen 2CV's and to various more exotic ones (including a Mark VI Bentley - that was a trade for a handful of of Nikon F's and lenses, filled with sand). The only time I have bought new cars have been on a need basis, A Renault 16, a couple of LWB Land Rovers and an Econoline Ford 250. The rest have ranged in price from $0.89 to about $3500!
My criteria was for a long time "No car shall cost more than a good 50mm lens". Interestingly enough, my standards are higher today with the recent hike in the Noctilux price. I could get something interesting for that kind of money.
Currently I am driving a 15 year old Jeep Grand Cherokee. It is speeding up Global Warming a bit, but then "future generations can fend for themselves" and "let them ride bicycles"! Also, rising sealevels would shorten my walk to the beach by 30-40 feet!
Film is the most important part - anything less than a years supply gives me an anxiety attack - as well as the chemistry to soup it.
Cameras are not a problem - I have enough to last several lifetimes - which does not stop me from aquiring more when the opporunity arises!
Travel is also a priority - I like the idea of getting away, not to a beach, but to another place. It doesn't change my daily routine much, but affords me a different view from the chair at the cafee.
I appreciate the mechanical perfection of some cars.watches, kitchen appliances etc, but they are mostly regarded as subjects for pictures and I can't stand the current design trends with crappy ergonomics and incomprehensible intructions. When the manual is bigger than the product - civilization as we know is in a decline.
Leica's old manual for the M2/M3/M4 were wonderful. They worked hard to fill 12-14 pages and if you ever had used one of their cameras before, you could figure out a new model in 2-3 minutes (going from the spool load to the tulip of the M4 and getting used to the angled rewind crank was the extent of "complexity"). I looked at a friends Nikon D3 - splendid camera and amazing quality, but a 440 pages manual!
Hence my affinity for M2's and the simple operation thereof!
My criteria was for a long time "No car shall cost more than a good 50mm lens". Interestingly enough, my standards are higher today with the recent hike in the Noctilux price. I could get something interesting for that kind of money.
Currently I am driving a 15 year old Jeep Grand Cherokee. It is speeding up Global Warming a bit, but then "future generations can fend for themselves" and "let them ride bicycles"! Also, rising sealevels would shorten my walk to the beach by 30-40 feet!
Film is the most important part - anything less than a years supply gives me an anxiety attack - as well as the chemistry to soup it.
Cameras are not a problem - I have enough to last several lifetimes - which does not stop me from aquiring more when the opporunity arises!
Travel is also a priority - I like the idea of getting away, not to a beach, but to another place. It doesn't change my daily routine much, but affords me a different view from the chair at the cafee.
I appreciate the mechanical perfection of some cars.watches, kitchen appliances etc, but they are mostly regarded as subjects for pictures and I can't stand the current design trends with crappy ergonomics and incomprehensible intructions. When the manual is bigger than the product - civilization as we know is in a decline.
Leica's old manual for the M2/M3/M4 were wonderful. They worked hard to fill 12-14 pages and if you ever had used one of their cameras before, you could figure out a new model in 2-3 minutes (going from the spool load to the tulip of the M4 and getting used to the angled rewind crank was the extent of "complexity"). I looked at a friends Nikon D3 - splendid camera and amazing quality, but a 440 pages manual!
Hence my affinity for M2's and the simple operation thereof!
Matthew Allen
Well-known
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Tom,
Reading this, I realized that I had never actually seen one!
I am perplexed by people who ask, on line, for manuals for cameras where you would need to be severely mentally defective, or never to have seen either a 120 or 35mm camera before, to need any advice whatsoever.
This does NOT include Werra wind-ons, Zorkii-4 rewinds, and many other eccentricities.
Cheers,
R.
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
Tell us more about the $0.89 car please.
Matthew
I was living in Sweden (early 60's) at the time and a friend of mine's dad had a huge scrap metal operation, cars,planes and ships. When he got something in in the car section that was a bit too nice to break, he would phone me "What do you have in your pocket right now" I would count through the change and tell him " Ok you just bought a XYZ car". The deal was if I resold it (usually with an empty gastank), I would deduct the orignal amount and we would split the difference. The $ 0,89 car was a 1953 Citroen Berlina 11 or 15CV. Came with a 3/4 tank of gas too. I drove it for 4-5 days and a friend bought it for $1.00. Ok, he had to put almost $5 in the tank! He kept the car for many years. There were weeks when I had 2-3 of these cars and I occasionally had difficulty remembering what I was driving! Usually only had one working battery that you had to carry between them.
Gumby
Veteran
Perhaps there are people out there who have an intellectual curiousity, or enjoy the "collector aspect" of the original documentation. What's wrong with that?
Yammerman
Well-known
So if other people need a manual they are severely mentally defective but if you need one thats Ok?
Classy thinking.:bang:
Roger Hicks
Veteran
No. Some cameras are so simple that anyone of normal or moderately below-normal intelligence can figure them out of they have ever seen a camera before.
Others are not.
Which bit didn't you understand?
Cheers,
R.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Collecting documentation, no problem.
Intellectual curiosity: about what? If every operation on a camera is self-evident, or evident to anyone who has ever owned any other 120 or 35mm camera, the only reason to look for the instructions is to collect the book.
So many people have been brainwashed by instruction books of 100+ pages that they tend to forget that with many well-designed products, you don't (and indeed shouldn't) need an instruction book. As with my observation to Tom. The only obscure bit about Leicas is the depth-of-field notches in the rangefinder patch.
Cheers,
R.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Ed,
Controversial, every time. For me, that's what being a mentor means.
Photography isn't difficult. Technique is pandered to everywhere.
Thinking is generally discouraged, but I try to encourage it.
If you see this as obnoxious or indeed as controversial, tough. Find another mentor.
A small example from my schooldays:
Physics master: "I am told China exists. Why do I say this?"
Me (after several other suggestions from others -- he deliberately waited before asking me): "Because you've never been there."
Physics master: "That's right." (Switches back to physics.)
Someone else: "But you've seen pictures of China!"
Physics master: "No I haven't. I've seen pictures captioned as China. Might have been Wales for all I know."
Someone else (bear in mind that this was in less politically correct days): "But they've got yellow skins and slant eyes."
Physics master: "They might have been Welsh. I don't know what Welsh people look like. I've never been to Wales, either."
Question everything (the Buddha himself advised this). If you don't understand it, set it aside. If you don't like it (you find me obnoxious), set me aside too. Not a problem for either of us...
Cheers,
R.
Gumby
Veteran
I have no problem with thinking; I, too, encourage it. In fact, I practice it often. I've even read a few old camera manuals even though I could figure it out just by fiddling with the camera. I do have a problem with name calling - mentally defective, etc. Re: mentorship... OK.
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I just found a Rollie 35TE for $15 at an antique shop. I'm glad I looked up the online manual. You have to advance the film before collapsing the lens. If you attempt to collapse the lens without the shutter being cocked, it can damage the mechanism. Apparently, the person that put the "$15 as is" did not know that. It works now.
On the Leica M3 Single Stroke- the RF patch's DOF indicator marks for F8 and F16 are well explained in the instruction manual. I'll assume they are the same for my M2.
On the Nikon S2, the shutter dial stays in the lifted position when using 1/1000th. Says so in the Manual.
But I could pick up the Nikon SP and use it right-away. I just bought the $20 Instruction Manual for the collector's value.
On the Leica M3 Single Stroke- the RF patch's DOF indicator marks for F8 and F16 are well explained in the instruction manual. I'll assume they are the same for my M2.
On the Nikon S2, the shutter dial stays in the lifted position when using 1/1000th. Says so in the Manual.
But I could pick up the Nikon SP and use it right-away. I just bought the $20 Instruction Manual for the collector's value.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
I have no problem with thinking; I, too, encourage it. In fact, I practice it often. I've even read a few old camera manuals even though I could figure it out just by fiddling with the camera. I do have a problem with name calling - mentally defective, etc. Re: mentorship... you ain't no mentor of mine old goat!
Dear Ed,
Another piece of advice from my schooldays, pertaining to examinations. READ THE QUESTION. Or in this case, read the reply.
To paraphrase: I am perplexed by those who ask for manuals for cameras where no manual is needed by those who are not mentally defective or have never seen a 35mm or 120 camera before.
Note, in particular, the choice: mentally defective, or completely unfamiliar with 35mm or 120 cameras. I do not see the 'name calling' in this.
You provided one and a half perfectly good reasons why someone might demand such a manual (I'm still not fully convinced by 'intellectual curiosity'). This legitimately reduced, but did not remove, my perplexity.
Whether I am, or am not, any mentor of yours is a matter of sublime indifference to me, but I do slightly wonder why you felt the need to call me 'old goat'.
Cheers,
R.
Gumby
Veteran
Please accept my apologies. I'll amend that in the post.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Brian,
I completely agree. My point was simply that some cameras are so unbelievably simple -- the average roll-film folder springs to mind -- that no instruction book should be needed by anyone who has owned any other similar camera.
We are all familiar with 'do not force it -- get a bigger hammer' and if we run into problems with a camera (i.e. it seems hard to operate a particular control) t is entirely reasonable to look for the instruction book or (more usually) ask for specific help on line.
A good example is the extra tension on the 1/500 shutter speed on leaf shutters, and the normal advice to set the speed before cocking the shutter. But (as with the Leica example you quote) this is transferable knowledge. I would never find fault with anyone for asking why 1/500 was hard to set -- ONCE. But a whole instruction book for a specific camera?
Cheers,
R.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Ed,
Gladly and unreservedly accepted; and please accept mine also for the brusque response.
Cheers,
Roger
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
Oh boy - I didnt realize that I would start a mudslinging match by referring to manuals! My background is journalist/photographer/chemist and industrial designer. As a designer I tend to look at something, try to figure it out and if the complexity of the piece of machinery is such that I can't grasp without going to them manual - I will do it. Scanning Electron Microscopes, Beckman Analyzers. high speed centrifuges (good idea as things tend to fly about if you dont balance it).
Most cameras that are well designed are intuitive to use and should be. The fact that the manufacturers try to cram everything in to them "because they can" is counter productive. Very few of us need or want it and those who do are willing to spend the time learning about it or buying a model that will do all of this!
Case in point: My current watch is a Seiko Chronograph which has a fancy alarm function in it as well as a split second timer. It came with it, I did not need it (it was bought at a yardsale for $80). After 16 month I have still to figure it out. I can't set the alarm or when I do by mistake. I cant turn it off without pressing every damned button! The split second timer looks like the gadget panel on the RD 1 camera. You press a button and various dials spin around in an interesting way. I did look up the manual on-line and it did not tell me anything that was useful. Oh,well - I bought it to tell me what time it is and that it does well!
My Mac comes with Photoshop CS3 (I think) - I have still not figured out how to use it. Adobe Lightroom on the other hand is designed for someone who wants it to do what I want, without having to spend days pressing keys and pushing a mouse around whilst muttering "What the H### happened now!". All I want it to do is to put black frames around my pictures that go on Flickr. I tried reading the manual and the "how to" stuff and as anyone who has ever visited my Flickr site can see - I still cant do it!
It is not that I could not learn these things, but it i simply that the time it takes to learn it is in no way proportional to the use I have for it!
Look back at things like the Gralab timer for the darkroom, the Focomat 1c, the M2/M3 and even the early M6 and you have simple, well built designs that even after decades perform well.
If you look at a bicycle, you can see how it works and though you will fall off a couple of times before you get the balance right - it actually functions as you imagine it in your mind! Look at the stash of remotes required to operate a basic cable box, a monitor and a DVD player and you go back to reading books (which is better for you and does not require a manual) and then try to make heads and tail of a Canon/Nikon/Leica Digital camera manual and Tri X makes sense.
One day the manufactureres of these gadgets (and that's what they are) will wake up and find that we have all gone back to the basic lead pencil and an envelope with stamp on it as they could not figure out how to use the latest upgrade in whatever system they were using. Time is money - and time having to read badly written, incomprihensible manuals for functions we dont need or want is a waste of money in my opinion!
Most cameras that are well designed are intuitive to use and should be. The fact that the manufacturers try to cram everything in to them "because they can" is counter productive. Very few of us need or want it and those who do are willing to spend the time learning about it or buying a model that will do all of this!
Case in point: My current watch is a Seiko Chronograph which has a fancy alarm function in it as well as a split second timer. It came with it, I did not need it (it was bought at a yardsale for $80). After 16 month I have still to figure it out. I can't set the alarm or when I do by mistake. I cant turn it off without pressing every damned button! The split second timer looks like the gadget panel on the RD 1 camera. You press a button and various dials spin around in an interesting way. I did look up the manual on-line and it did not tell me anything that was useful. Oh,well - I bought it to tell me what time it is and that it does well!
My Mac comes with Photoshop CS3 (I think) - I have still not figured out how to use it. Adobe Lightroom on the other hand is designed for someone who wants it to do what I want, without having to spend days pressing keys and pushing a mouse around whilst muttering "What the H### happened now!". All I want it to do is to put black frames around my pictures that go on Flickr. I tried reading the manual and the "how to" stuff and as anyone who has ever visited my Flickr site can see - I still cant do it!
It is not that I could not learn these things, but it i simply that the time it takes to learn it is in no way proportional to the use I have for it!
Look back at things like the Gralab timer for the darkroom, the Focomat 1c, the M2/M3 and even the early M6 and you have simple, well built designs that even after decades perform well.
If you look at a bicycle, you can see how it works and though you will fall off a couple of times before you get the balance right - it actually functions as you imagine it in your mind! Look at the stash of remotes required to operate a basic cable box, a monitor and a DVD player and you go back to reading books (which is better for you and does not require a manual) and then try to make heads and tail of a Canon/Nikon/Leica Digital camera manual and Tri X makes sense.
One day the manufactureres of these gadgets (and that's what they are) will wake up and find that we have all gone back to the basic lead pencil and an envelope with stamp on it as they could not figure out how to use the latest upgrade in whatever system they were using. Time is money - and time having to read badly written, incomprihensible manuals for functions we dont need or want is a waste of money in my opinion!
dee
Well-known
Back to priorities ...
It was recently that I dee'scovered that , in an autistically glitched world , that hands and eyes actually work together to make a Leica II '' real ''
This led to a somewhat feverish aquisition of many '' real '' cameras - ironically [ ? ] , mostly Leica-likes from the ex-USSR ... This obliterated any previous passions .
Then I found that the M 8 created the same , all too rare magic connection ... but with instant results !
An inheritance permitted this once-in-a-lifetime purchase , however I did not even agonise over the more that adequate stereo system that was a previous '' priority '' - even with the prospect of using Russian lenses , I needed that camera as a window onto fragmented world ... [ and one Fed collapsible has that sparkle ! ]
Neither did I hesitate about buying a 6 month old Leica Digilux 3 instead of 3x Voightlander lenses - because the Dig 3 offers the same connection in the more familiar guise of an SLR - and that lazy zoom , and I knew that this would be the last of a traditionally styled camera
I drive an Alfa 147 , so I am not indee'ferent to cars - we also have a 2cv which actually needs driving - rather like a Leica II with similar innovation , but without any hint of quality of engineering !
To simplify , my cameras contain / filter / make accesible , a confusing world as no other objects have - incl my previous Minolta SLRs ...
My current priorities therefore are for several Voigtlander lenses to extend ''emma'' the M 8's capabilities ... though ASdee tends to swap priorities with exhausting frequency - I really think that emma is there fore the duration !
dee
It was recently that I dee'scovered that , in an autistically glitched world , that hands and eyes actually work together to make a Leica II '' real ''
This led to a somewhat feverish aquisition of many '' real '' cameras - ironically [ ? ] , mostly Leica-likes from the ex-USSR ... This obliterated any previous passions .
Then I found that the M 8 created the same , all too rare magic connection ... but with instant results !
An inheritance permitted this once-in-a-lifetime purchase , however I did not even agonise over the more that adequate stereo system that was a previous '' priority '' - even with the prospect of using Russian lenses , I needed that camera as a window onto fragmented world ... [ and one Fed collapsible has that sparkle ! ]
Neither did I hesitate about buying a 6 month old Leica Digilux 3 instead of 3x Voightlander lenses - because the Dig 3 offers the same connection in the more familiar guise of an SLR - and that lazy zoom , and I knew that this would be the last of a traditionally styled camera
I drive an Alfa 147 , so I am not indee'ferent to cars - we also have a 2cv which actually needs driving - rather like a Leica II with similar innovation , but without any hint of quality of engineering !
To simplify , my cameras contain / filter / make accesible , a confusing world as no other objects have - incl my previous Minolta SLRs ...
My current priorities therefore are for several Voigtlander lenses to extend ''emma'' the M 8's capabilities ... though ASdee tends to swap priorities with exhausting frequency - I really think that emma is there fore the duration !
dee
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Tom,
Around 30 years ago I used to write software manuals for mainframes. I remember one software package designed for vehicle fleet maintenance. Ti summarize a conversation early in the manual design stage:
Me: Imagine I am a 16-year-old school leaver who has been told she has to operate this system next week. What buttons do I press?
Subject matter expert: It's not that simple...
Me: Then go back and re-write it until it is.
S.M.E. But the system architecture...
Me: I repeat: I am a 16-year-old school leaver. What buttons do I press?
And it got rewritten.
EDIT: Dee: love your example.
Cheers,
R.
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