PatrickT
New Rangefinder User
So, based on some of the advice from my previous thread, I bought my equipment and started developing.
My first go round was a disaster...wasn't getting the timing right, got the dilutions wrong, etc. I ended up with photos on the negatives, but I don't know how.
My second try (a couple hours ago) seemed to go much better...got the chemicals diluted, was right on the timer (using the Massive Dev App), etc. Took the negatives out...and they look strange. Let's see if I can describe them.
The film was Arista Premium 400 (TRI-X). The negatives look to be a purple-ish color and seem very dense. After scanning a few of them, there seems to be low contrast and lots of grain. Also, there seems to be these strange little spots...
I used HC-110 (dilution B) for 4.5 minutes, agitating the first minute (inversions) and then again every minute for 10 seconds (this was based on what the massive dev app) told me. Used stop bath, fixer, rinsed and used photo-flo.
My only thought is that I mixed the developer improperly and underdeveloped the negatives (by diluting the mixture too much). Would that explain the purpleish color and denseness?
Here's a sample, right from the scanner:
And after I ran it through levels:
What's wrong?
My first go round was a disaster...wasn't getting the timing right, got the dilutions wrong, etc. I ended up with photos on the negatives, but I don't know how.
My second try (a couple hours ago) seemed to go much better...got the chemicals diluted, was right on the timer (using the Massive Dev App), etc. Took the negatives out...and they look strange. Let's see if I can describe them.
The film was Arista Premium 400 (TRI-X). The negatives look to be a purple-ish color and seem very dense. After scanning a few of them, there seems to be low contrast and lots of grain. Also, there seems to be these strange little spots...
I used HC-110 (dilution B) for 4.5 minutes, agitating the first minute (inversions) and then again every minute for 10 seconds (this was based on what the massive dev app) told me. Used stop bath, fixer, rinsed and used photo-flo.
My only thought is that I mixed the developer improperly and underdeveloped the negatives (by diluting the mixture too much). Would that explain the purpleish color and denseness?
Here's a sample, right from the scanner:
And after I ran it through levels:
What's wrong?
ElectroWNED
Well-known
From what I've seen, Arista isn't very contrasty... the purple could be anything from an odd combination of film/developer, to your choice of fixer, etc... It could even be the photoflo doing damage to your negatives.
xwhatsit
Well-known
Are they underfixed? Tri-X is always a little bit purplish but the more it is fixed (well past double clearing time, with the drop test etc.), and then washed, the more the purple disappears. I suppose if they were underfixed they might look dense and have funny spots.
If they were underdeveloped then they would be pale and clear. They are negatives, after all. If you've overdeveloped them then that wouldn't explain the purple wash -- although, as above, a little purplish tint is OK -- and the lack of contrast; instead they would be very contrasty.
Just a suggestion -- bearing in mind I've never used HC-110, nor am I familiar with it -- but 4.5 mins is a relatively short developing time, especially when you're doing your first few rolls and juggling jars of chemicals and trying to remember what next. With shorter times you have a greater chance of inaccuracy re: times. You might want to try a higher dilution for longer developing times, which will give you a bit more time to breathe.
If they were underdeveloped then they would be pale and clear. They are negatives, after all. If you've overdeveloped them then that wouldn't explain the purple wash -- although, as above, a little purplish tint is OK -- and the lack of contrast; instead they would be very contrasty.
Just a suggestion -- bearing in mind I've never used HC-110, nor am I familiar with it -- but 4.5 mins is a relatively short developing time, especially when you're doing your first few rolls and juggling jars of chemicals and trying to remember what next. With shorter times you have a greater chance of inaccuracy re: times. You might want to try a higher dilution for longer developing times, which will give you a bit more time to breathe.
mfogiel
Veteran
First, you have overdeveloped the negatives, second you have air bubbles signs on them, third you have fixed for too short of a time.
I would recommend that in the first place, you dilute your developer more (and adjust the dev time), so that you get at least 9-10 mins dev time, which is easier to control, and also gives the film a chance to develop evenly if you agitate correctly (make sure to bang the tank a few times against a hard surface after each agitation, to dislodge the air bubbles).
Personally, I always use fresh fixer, therefore I do not use stop bath or water bath before fixing: just develop and fix, this keeps things simpler, and works very well for me. Remember, that if you scan, you need to keep your negs on the thin side, so normally the Massive Dev chart times will be a bit too long.
I would recommend that in the first place, you dilute your developer more (and adjust the dev time), so that you get at least 9-10 mins dev time, which is easier to control, and also gives the film a chance to develop evenly if you agitate correctly (make sure to bang the tank a few times against a hard surface after each agitation, to dislodge the air bubbles).
Personally, I always use fresh fixer, therefore I do not use stop bath or water bath before fixing: just develop and fix, this keeps things simpler, and works very well for me. Remember, that if you scan, you need to keep your negs on the thin side, so normally the Massive Dev chart times will be a bit too long.
Chris101
summicronia
Hey Patrick. Trix and hc110 have worked well for ages, so that's not a problem. The dilution should be 17mL of the syrup diluted to 500mL of working solution.
The white dots indicate that some foreign material has gotten into one of your solutions and is on the negatives either at scan time, or during development, and making a dark spot on the negative (they do not look like bubbles.) Examine your negatives closely with a magnifier and look for the culprit.
The purple color - I would ask how well are you draining and rinsing between developing and fixing, what kind of fixer are you using, how long are you fixing, and how long and what method are you using to wash the film after fixing?
Finally, look at your photoflo carefully. Are you diluting 5mL to a liter with distilled water? Your negatives do not look water spotted, so I doubt this is the problem, but it doesn't hurt to be thorough.
You should: wash the film with 2 complete changes of fresh water between develoment and fixing. Fix with fresh rapid fixer for 4 minutes (longer with used fixer), or for 7 minutes with soda (non-rapid) fixer. Wash for 20 minutes (at least) after fixing if you do not use a hypo-clearing wash - 10 minutes if you do. Photoflo for 30 sec to a minute, and then shake the excess from the film, and hang them to dry in a dust free environment.
The white dots indicate that some foreign material has gotten into one of your solutions and is on the negatives either at scan time, or during development, and making a dark spot on the negative (they do not look like bubbles.) Examine your negatives closely with a magnifier and look for the culprit.
The purple color - I would ask how well are you draining and rinsing between developing and fixing, what kind of fixer are you using, how long are you fixing, and how long and what method are you using to wash the film after fixing?
Finally, look at your photoflo carefully. Are you diluting 5mL to a liter with distilled water? Your negatives do not look water spotted, so I doubt this is the problem, but it doesn't hurt to be thorough.
You should: wash the film with 2 complete changes of fresh water between develoment and fixing. Fix with fresh rapid fixer for 4 minutes (longer with used fixer), or for 7 minutes with soda (non-rapid) fixer. Wash for 20 minutes (at least) after fixing if you do not use a hypo-clearing wash - 10 minutes if you do. Photoflo for 30 sec to a minute, and then shake the excess from the film, and hang them to dry in a dust free environment.
Moriturii
Well-known
ChrisN
Striving
The white spots look just like the stuff that grew in my Photoflo rinse solution and contaminated my negs when I tried to keep it for a week (for re-use). Dump it after each session.
Ljós
Well-known
Patrick,
congrats on your first self-developed film. A week from now nothing but fond memories of your inital troubles will remain, while your nice negatives hang to dry.
My thoughts: the purpleness of the "new" Tri-X is not (necessarily) a sign of underfixing. It is a feature of this film and has to do with the anti-halation coating. Lots and lots of washing (long beyond what is necessary for archival purposes), and exposure to sunlight will minimize this colour stain. It is totally harmless and the negatives will print fine nonetheless. But it looks irritating. Make sure you fix all right, and then let the remaining colour not bother you. Interestingly the new Tmax-400 (TMY2) is less purple after development than Tri-X.
If you want to see something funny (and get a nice developer of its own), get your hands on Rodinal (or a knockoff) and develop your Tri-X (Arista), preferably 1:50. Upon emptying the tank the water will be violently violet!
Rodinal and the anti-halation dye together give this strong colour.
Development time:
Mareks advice on having dev. times in the 9 minute range is sound and wise. However, it is possible to dev. Tri-X or Hp5 etc. in HC-110 Dil. B. for (my time, mind you) 5:30 minutes and get repeatable results, I have been doing it for years. If you develop a lot of film (which I reckon you might), these extra 4 to 5 minutes can begin to bother you. There is no doubt though that the "more-than-5-minute-for-better-repeatability"-approach has logic and empirical observations to its credit. Save minutes or be wise - your choice ;-)
So, tell us exactly: how many ml of developer were you using, in what size tank?
About dilution: the ratios are not set in stone. Dil. B. is the most common, 1:31.
Myself, I use 15ml (easy to measure) in a 485ml tank, and found a time that works for me. That is a smidgen more dilute than Dil. B.
Dil. H. (twice the dilution as Dil. B.) has many adherents as well - this will give a longer time, too. Probably better for taming contrast, less so for "pushing".
Or you can settle on a compromise, Dil. PatrickT, say 1:50.
Seriously: if you can, post a picture of your developed negs as they sit on a lightbox, a sheet of paper etc. That way we can give you feedback on how your negatives turned out.
Finally: what scanner are you using? Traditional BW films are not easy to scan well. It is entirely possible that your negative (apart from the blotches) would print more than ok in the wet process.
And finally finally ;-) have you considered doing your own darkroom work? THEN the fun really begins
All the best,
Ljós
congrats on your first self-developed film. A week from now nothing but fond memories of your inital troubles will remain, while your nice negatives hang to dry.
My thoughts: the purpleness of the "new" Tri-X is not (necessarily) a sign of underfixing. It is a feature of this film and has to do with the anti-halation coating. Lots and lots of washing (long beyond what is necessary for archival purposes), and exposure to sunlight will minimize this colour stain. It is totally harmless and the negatives will print fine nonetheless. But it looks irritating. Make sure you fix all right, and then let the remaining colour not bother you. Interestingly the new Tmax-400 (TMY2) is less purple after development than Tri-X.
If you want to see something funny (and get a nice developer of its own), get your hands on Rodinal (or a knockoff) and develop your Tri-X (Arista), preferably 1:50. Upon emptying the tank the water will be violently violet!
Rodinal and the anti-halation dye together give this strong colour.Development time:
Mareks advice on having dev. times in the 9 minute range is sound and wise. However, it is possible to dev. Tri-X or Hp5 etc. in HC-110 Dil. B. for (my time, mind you) 5:30 minutes and get repeatable results, I have been doing it for years. If you develop a lot of film (which I reckon you might), these extra 4 to 5 minutes can begin to bother you. There is no doubt though that the "more-than-5-minute-for-better-repeatability"-approach has logic and empirical observations to its credit. Save minutes or be wise - your choice ;-)
So, tell us exactly: how many ml of developer were you using, in what size tank?
About dilution: the ratios are not set in stone. Dil. B. is the most common, 1:31.
Myself, I use 15ml (easy to measure) in a 485ml tank, and found a time that works for me. That is a smidgen more dilute than Dil. B.
Dil. H. (twice the dilution as Dil. B.) has many adherents as well - this will give a longer time, too. Probably better for taming contrast, less so for "pushing".
Or you can settle on a compromise, Dil. PatrickT, say 1:50.
Seriously: if you can, post a picture of your developed negs as they sit on a lightbox, a sheet of paper etc. That way we can give you feedback on how your negatives turned out.
Finally: what scanner are you using? Traditional BW films are not easy to scan well. It is entirely possible that your negative (apart from the blotches) would print more than ok in the wet process.
And finally finally ;-) have you considered doing your own darkroom work? THEN the fun really begins
All the best,
Ljós
Last edited:
Ljós
Well-known
Ilford wash sequence
Ilford wash sequence
One more thing, regarding (archival) washing:
You can save a lot of water by using the Ilford wash sequence. The following thread has some information/discussion, with Roger Hicks chiming in:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101038&page=2
I add some more water-swaps, just to be extrasafe. Even so, the amount of water used is comparatively little.
Ilford wash sequence
One more thing, regarding (archival) washing:
You can save a lot of water by using the Ilford wash sequence. The following thread has some information/discussion, with Roger Hicks chiming in:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101038&page=2
I add some more water-swaps, just to be extrasafe. Even so, the amount of water used is comparatively little.
thetooth
Well-known
I use hc-110 with tri-x 400 . Dilution b ( 19ml for 600ml water ) @ 68 degrees for 5 1/2 minutes with good results . I agitate for the first 15 secs , then for 10 seconds every minute . I use a slow inversion for agitation nothing to fast . rinse well with tap water and fix for 4 minutes . make sure you rinse water temp is about the same as you developing fluid and that is does not vary .
PatrickT
New Rangefinder User
Thanks so much for all of the help guys.
I pretty much followed what the Massive dev app told me for HC-110 dilB...
Develop 4:30, agitating (inversions) first minute, then 10 seconds every minute after (knocking on table to dislodge bubbles after every agitation session).
Stop bath (kodak indicator) for 1 minute, agitating (inversions) constantly.
Fixing (Kodak Fixer) for 5 minutes, inversions for 10 seconds every minute (I think).
Rinsing (tap water) using Ilford method...fill tank, 1 inversion, empty/fill tank 10 inversions, empty/fill tank, 20 inversions.
Photo Flo (arista flo) 1:200 for 30 seconds agitating by spinning spindle.
Sounds right? I'm using a Paterson universal tank, 1 reel (35mm), 290ml solution for each step.
Seems like I need to lengthen my developing time (to 5 - 5 1/2 minutes) and lengthen my fixing time based on feedback above.
Thanks!
I pretty much followed what the Massive dev app told me for HC-110 dilB...
Develop 4:30, agitating (inversions) first minute, then 10 seconds every minute after (knocking on table to dislodge bubbles after every agitation session).
Stop bath (kodak indicator) for 1 minute, agitating (inversions) constantly.
Fixing (Kodak Fixer) for 5 minutes, inversions for 10 seconds every minute (I think).
Rinsing (tap water) using Ilford method...fill tank, 1 inversion, empty/fill tank 10 inversions, empty/fill tank, 20 inversions.
Photo Flo (arista flo) 1:200 for 30 seconds agitating by spinning spindle.
Sounds right? I'm using a Paterson universal tank, 1 reel (35mm), 290ml solution for each step.
Seems like I need to lengthen my developing time (to 5 - 5 1/2 minutes) and lengthen my fixing time based on feedback above.
Thanks!
David Hughes
David Hughes
Just curious: don't you people doing it at home etc, use a wetting agent? Are they still made or what? Not done any for a while and so was wondering...
Regards, David
Regards, David
daninjc
Well-known
I got dense and very purplish negatives the first time I fixed my tri-X (developed in d76).
My mistake was fixing for about 5 minutes using kodak powder fixer, which is not the rapid (liquid) fixer, and requires longer times.
I re-fixed all the negatives for an additional 10 minutes, and that got rid of some of the extra density and color. Also it seems that leaving the negatives in sunlight for a little while before archiving them reduces the purple color.
My mistake was fixing for about 5 minutes using kodak powder fixer, which is not the rapid (liquid) fixer, and requires longer times.
I re-fixed all the negatives for an additional 10 minutes, and that got rid of some of the extra density and color. Also it seems that leaving the negatives in sunlight for a little while before archiving them reduces the purple color.
PatrickT
New Rangefinder User
Yep, I'm using the Kodak powder fixer...didn't know any better when I bought it.
So total fixing time should be around 15 minutes with this fixer?
iamzip
Ambitious, but rubbish
I don't have a lot of experience using different developers, but if you continue to have problems you could try using diafine - that is pretty much idiot proof, so that's why I use it. Once you get used to using that, you could try branching out into different developers again.
I also use the Ilford wash method, it has always worked well for me.
I also use the Ilford wash method, it has always worked well for me.
oftheherd
Veteran
I have read that a couple of times here on RFF. I guess it works, but I what I used to read, and what I was taught, was to do the inversions, then tap a couple or three times and let it set until the next inversion. I can't say tapping before inversions is wrong, but the latter has always worked well for me. I was always told the air bubbles could form during development or during inversion.
FWIW
daninjc
Well-known
When I re-fixed I left them 10 additional minutes and that improved the negatives quite a lot.
I think in general 10 minutes of fixing witht he kodak powder should be enough (it should say that on the box) - that's what I'm using right now. I don't think 10 or 15 minutes would make much of a difference - but 5 minutes were definitely too short for me.
I think in general 10 minutes of fixing witht he kodak powder should be enough (it should say that on the box) - that's what I'm using right now. I don't think 10 or 15 minutes would make much of a difference - but 5 minutes were definitely too short for me.
PatrickT
New Rangefinder User
Yep, that's what I did. Sorry for the confusion!
PatrickT
New Rangefinder User
Denverdad
Established
I am largely just reiterating what most others have said, but as for the purple-ish cast - it is basically "normal" for Tri-X. There is a huge discussion about this on APUG, here which you can read about if you like. But in my experience, one can fix all day and wash all day, and the color is still there. As someone suggested you can hang it in the sun (or let it sit on a light table) for a couple hours to remove this color. I tend to do this myself, even though I know it is not necessary in order to obtain a good scan.
In comparison, if the film has not been sufficienlty fixed I find that the central area of the strip has a sort of brownish cast to it - or at least that's the way it appears next to the pink/purple. If this is the case for this particular roll, you can re-fix for a longer time (put the film back into the tank and re-cycle starting from the fixing step) and this will take care of it.
Going to a higher dilution and longer development time with the HC-110 is a good suggestion too. I usually use dilution H myself so that fraction of time it takes to fill/empty the tank becomes less of an issue. I find that things just seem more relaxed with the time stretched out too.
The spots on the film look to me just like the usual "gunk" one sometimes gets on the film during processing - dust, fibers, debris, etc. This is more or less normal too, and it just takes some effort and a few attempts to work out where you need to improve the cleanliness in your process. But look at the environment where you are hanging to dry as that is often the biggest culprit for dust.
A lot of what you are seeing may be the result of the scanning as well. Are you new to scanning, or perhaps to scanning B&W? If so, you should know that there is sometimes a steep learning curve with how to use a scanner most effectively in order to obtain the best results. Books can be written about this subject! Personally, I try to scan in a way that insures a maximum amount of information being captured, without any clipping of highlights or shadows. This tends to result in a very "flat" scan, requiring more time adjusting the image in post processing in order to get it looking right.
Regardless of all the above, you are actually doing fine for your first attempt! As Ljós suggested, after a couple more rolls you will have worked out the kinks in your process, gaining confidence and starting to get results you are much happier with.
Jeff
In comparison, if the film has not been sufficienlty fixed I find that the central area of the strip has a sort of brownish cast to it - or at least that's the way it appears next to the pink/purple. If this is the case for this particular roll, you can re-fix for a longer time (put the film back into the tank and re-cycle starting from the fixing step) and this will take care of it.
Going to a higher dilution and longer development time with the HC-110 is a good suggestion too. I usually use dilution H myself so that fraction of time it takes to fill/empty the tank becomes less of an issue. I find that things just seem more relaxed with the time stretched out too.
The spots on the film look to me just like the usual "gunk" one sometimes gets on the film during processing - dust, fibers, debris, etc. This is more or less normal too, and it just takes some effort and a few attempts to work out where you need to improve the cleanliness in your process. But look at the environment where you are hanging to dry as that is often the biggest culprit for dust.
A lot of what you are seeing may be the result of the scanning as well. Are you new to scanning, or perhaps to scanning B&W? If so, you should know that there is sometimes a steep learning curve with how to use a scanner most effectively in order to obtain the best results. Books can be written about this subject! Personally, I try to scan in a way that insures a maximum amount of information being captured, without any clipping of highlights or shadows. This tends to result in a very "flat" scan, requiring more time adjusting the image in post processing in order to get it looking right.
Regardless of all the above, you are actually doing fine for your first attempt! As Ljós suggested, after a couple more rolls you will have worked out the kinks in your process, gaining confidence and starting to get results you are much happier with.
Jeff