processing and chemicals

[OmegaB600]

Ive seen people get usable negatives from that caffenol stuff, i couldnt at all.

Ive seen people use that cinestill monobath as a film developer. I could develop film, but the results were bad.. lots of odd highlights, etc on things that had no highlights..


Now I developed a roll of kodak 5222, aka double XX. Now i have only shot 3 home rolls of it now. first roll jammed in the camera and i had to kill it to get it out. camera is more important than a roll of film. Second roll i developed in ilford HC. it did not go well, wrong time i guess.

Today i shot a roll, carefully exposed at 200 iso in my light meter. I got some nice macro shots on flowers and bees being bees on said flowers. New buds opening up, etc.

I developed it with rodinal 1:50. gave it 10 minutes as the recipe stated too, photrio post by their "do not disagree with this user or you account is deleted" person of authority. at 9:45 i started pouring the developer out, to get full empty. Then i poured in home made citric acid stop bath.

1 tea spoon in 500ml. The minute it was in the tank, the stop and tank went from no smell, to reaking of BOILING VINEGAR. I mean it was stronger then the smell of undiluted ilford rapid stop. I poured it out after fixing. The smell stayed.

I I fixed for 7 minutes with ilford rapidfixer. I got the first bath of water in, and had to help in the kitchen. And poured the 1st rinse out after a total of 20minutes. It came out like red koolaid.

The film turned out crap.. Barely see anything on it, have to hold it special way to the light, and it looks like crap.

wastd day wasted film, wasted time.

Did learn, no more home made stop bath

 

[Horatio]

Sorry to hear of your troubles. I had good results with caffenol and DF96. Stand development with Rodinal? That's another story! Don't give up.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

If you need pictures, use only well known chemical and use them as in the instructions.

You don't really need stop bath, btw. Just water is enough.

And here is no need for fartio (ex-apug) if you need more than instructions, use massive dev chart web page or app.

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

If you're a beginner, my recommendation is to get some normal B&W film. Kodak Tri-X or Tmax 400 are both good. Then get a standard B&W developer. D-76 is a good one to start with. Develop using the developing times the manufacturer recommends. Use water instad of stop bath. Fil the tank with water, pour it out, then fill and pour again; then put in the fixer. You should get good results. Don't bother with exotic processes or chemicals or homemade stuff when you're learning; that just introduces more complications and sources of possible failure.

 

[Mcary]

Agree with Chris regarding D-76 and highly recommend ADOX D-76 due to fact that it can be mixed a much lower temp then Kodak D-76.

 

[OmegaB600]

not a fan of powdered developr. I do have a packet of ID-11 but im waiting on using it.. Id like to figure out this problem with chemicals first.

Since I posted this originally, I just went back to the stop bath, and it no longer SMELLS of vinegar. And its cleared up. When i made it and poured it in the film tank, it was clear. When I poured it out it looked like Squirt.

Same appearance when I poured it ouf of my paper tubes the last 3 times i made a print.. I think it is something in the citric acid. Turns out the company used 2% silicon dioxide as anti caking agent. Perhaps the issue.

 

[DownUnder]

Developing film isn't rocket science, but it requires, even demands precision. And discipline. Watch the temperatures, keep all your solutions at an even temp. Plan your workflow at 20C/68F if you can. If you can't, go online and work out how to adjust your processing time according to the temperature you process at. This is important, even crucial, for optimum results.

As someone else here has already posted - D76 as your developer. Rapidfix. Miss STRICTLY according to instructions. Avoid any impulsive experimentation.

There is no need for you to use stop bath. Thanks to friends who gave up their darkrooms I have a lifetime supply of the stuff (the Kodak brand), so I use it. At half the recommended dilution. A friend who gets the finest results I've seen on all his films, puts a scant teaspoon of domestic vinegar in one later of water in his after-developer rinse water. His results are, as I said, superb.

Start small, learn as you go, move up from there. And READ EVERYTHING that comes with the packet!

Before you process any valuable films, do a test roll. Expose at various ISOs, like two above the box rate, then two under. Process normally. Evaluate your results.

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

not a fan of powdered developr. I do have a packet of ID-11 but im waiting on using it.. Id like to figure out this problem with chemicals first.

Since I posted this originally, I just went back to the stop bath, and it no longer SMELLS of vinegar. And its cleared up. When i made it and poured it in the film tank, it was clear. When I poured it out it looked like Squirt.

Same appearance when I poured it ouf of my paper tubes the last 3 times i made a print.. I think it is something in the citric acid. Turns out the company used 2% silicon dioxide as anti caking agent. Perhaps the issue.

We told you how to solve your chemical issues. Use a standard developer, not some homebrew crap. Skip the stop bath and use plain water. Use a normal film, not a repurposed movie film. Follow the manufacturer's recommended developing time for the film using the developer you choose. If you don't want to use a powdered developer, get some Tmax Developer. It works well for most films. It is expensive, but it is good and easy to use.

If you still don't get good results, then developing is not your issue. If a standard film like Tmax or Tri-X gives you results with barely any image even after developing the way I just told you to, then you're severely underexposing your film. Have your camera checked out to see if its meter is accurate and the shutter is working correctly.

By the way, Photrio does not have a "do not disagree with this user or you account is deleted" person. I've been there nearly 20 yrs.

 

[wlewisiii]

My best luck over the years has always been with basic films - PlusX when they still made it, HP5, FP4, PANF now - and the either D76 or Diafine. I use D76 as an old fashioned one shot, straight book times when I have something I don't know how it's going to work. I use it by the old Yellow father's directions and it goes straight down the drain when done.

Diafine, OTOH, is my preferred chemistry but it takes fiddling to learn. But once you do, it's a fun little bit of chemical magic. HP5 at EI800 is nice (nothing will ever replace PlusX at EI400 though...) and the negs scan delightfully.

 

[Muggins]

I think it is something in the citric acid. Turns out the company used 2% silicon dioxide as anti caking agent. Perhaps the issue.

Silicon dioxide is inert, that's why windows get made out of it (that and it's see-through). Your only issue with that is that you will have some insoluble powder at the bottom of your solution. Unless, of course, you are heating it hot enough to melt glass...

But, as Chris says, stop bath is an extra, not an essential. You can do without. He's right - go back to basics, get those right, when it all works you can play with homebrew etc (I know this, I've done it myself).

 

[DownUnder]

After rereading your posts, I second the thought put to you here, that your processing isn't your main problem. Obviously from what you've written, it's part of it. But this can be simply dealt with by reading the instructions of the chemistry packs you use, and following those.

Either your camera or your workflow is stuffing up your results.

The camera can be easily checked. Get two rolls of conventional film (either ISO 100-125 or 400 will do) and load your camera with the first roll. Set up the camera (ideally on a tripod) to take one scene only. Do not handhold the camera and aim it all over the place for this test as this will give you incorrect results. The scene has to be, must be, the same for all the images you take.

Set the camera's meter on the film's box speed. Then rrun the camera through all its speeds. For example, 1 second @ f/22, 1/2 second @ f/16, 1/4 second at f/11, etc etc, depending on your meter readings. You may miss one or two of the higher speeds, but well, who uses those much anyway? I seem to photograph everything at 1/250 at f/5.6 anyway, and I reckon all my cameras are now firmly stuck on this setting.

A small disclaimer here. Auto-everything cameras usually micromanage the shutter speeds. But I reckon you should still do this test anyway, if only for the experience of it. Set the camera on A. (= aperture). Maybe write down a list of the speeds the camera auto-sets as you adjust the f/stops. They should be exactly 2x up or 2x down the previous speed - I hope this makes sense to you. It does to me, but I really don't feel up to explaining it to you. Just trust me on this.

Process this film normally. Maybe mix up your packet of ID 11 (remember to FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS) and use it at 20C or close thereto. Evaluate the results.

If your negatives are all the same, your camera's speeds and/or the metering are fine. If any are underexposed or overexposed, then that one speed is most likely off. This will mean a repair, or if you are in a super-cranky mood, maybe a new camera...

If all is okay, load the second roll. Set the meter at box speed. Expose from one full stop under to one full stop over, which will mean seven separate negatives. With ISO 100 film, this will give you results covering ISO 200-160-125-100-80-64-50. You can then decide which speed suits you by giving you the negatives to make your best prints.

As I wrote before, it ain't rocket science. But it works. You may or you may not get something out of all this, but it's a fun way to use up two rolls of film, and indulge in a disciplined workflow in your darkroom.

You will learn a lot from this.

I will spare you any more lectures on your processing workflow. We have given you a lot of good advice already. It's now up to you to follow it, as they say in Aussie sports, strewth! mate, the ball is in your court.

Chris Crawford, who has replied to your posts, has some truly excellent essays on film and darkroom procedures and processes on his web site. Check out his tutorial on film processing. I hadn't visited his site for some time but I did just now, and I will be returning to it to refresh my learning about many things, notably scanning. For all your good work on our behalf, Chris, many thanks!

 

[OmegaB600]

After rereading all your posts, I second the thought put to you here by at least one poster, that your processing isn't your main problem. Obviously from what you've written, it's a part of it. But this can be simply dealt with by just reading the instructions of the chemistry packs you use, and following those.

Either your camera or your workflow is stuffing up your results.

The camera can be easily checked. Get two rolls of conventional film (either ISO 100-125 or 400 will do) and load your camera with the first roll. Set up the camera (ideally on a tripod) to take one scene only. Do not handhold the camera and aim it all over the place for this test as this will give you incorrect results. The scene has to be, must be, the same for all the images you take.

Set the camera's meter on the film's box speed. Then rrun the camera through all its speeds. For example, 1 second @ f/22, 1/2 second @ f/16, 1/4 second at f/11, etc etc, depending on your meter readings. You may miss one or two of the higher speeds, but well, who uses those much anyway? I seem to photograph everything at 1/250 at f/5.6 anyway, and I reckon all my cameras are now firmly stuck on this setting.

A small disclaimer here. Auto-everything cameras usually micromanage the shutter speeds. But I reckon you should still do this test anyway, if only for the experience of it. Set the camera on A. (= aperture). Maybe write down a list of the speeds the camera auto-sets as you adjust the f/stops. They should be exactly 2x up or 2x down the previous speed - I hope this makes sense to you. It does to me, but I really don't feel up to explaining it to you. Just trust me on this.

Process this film normally. Maybe mix up your packet of ID 11 (remember to FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS) and use it at 20C or close thereto. Evaluate the results.

If your negatives are all the same, your camera's speeds and/or the metering are fine. If any are underexposed or overexposed, then that one speed is most likely off. This will mean a repair, or if you are in a super-cranky mood, maybe a new camera... 🤬

If all is okay, load the second roll. Set the meter at box speed. Expose from one full stop under to one full stop over, which will mean seven separate negatives. With ISO 100 film, this will give you results covering ISO 200-160-125-100-80-64-50. You can then decide which speed suits you by giving you the negatives to make your best prints.

As I wrote before, it ain't rocket science. But it works. You may or you may not get something out of all this, but it's a fun way to use up two rolls of film, and indulge in a disciplined workflow in your darkroom.

You will learn a lot from this.

I will spare you any more lectures on your processing workflow. We have given you a lot of good advice already. It's now up to you to follow it, as they say in Aussie sports, strewth! mate, the ball is in your court.

Chris Crawford, who has replied to your posts in this thread, has many excellent essays on film and darkroom procedures and processes on his web site. Check out his tutorial on film processing. I haven't visited his site for some time but I did just now, and I will be returning to it to refresh my learning about many things, notably scanning. For all your good work on our behalf, Chris, many thanks!

the meter works, however i use something called a sekonic hand held digital meter. That is accurate.

 

[Godfrey]

FWIW: My simple B&W regimen:

- I mostly shoot with Ilford HP5 or Fuji ACROS 100 ... I rate the HP5 at ISO 320 and the ACROS at ISO 80.

===
Processing equipment and setup:

- Daylight-load tank like an Agfa Rondix 35 or Lab box (mostly used the Rondix 35 because it is so simple to work with)

- Kodak HC-110 liquid concentrate: mix to working solution at 1:49 dilution (4ml of developer in 196ml of water for the Rondix 35).

- Ilford Rapid Fixer concentrate, mix to working solution at 1:4 dilution (40ml of fixer in 160ml of water for the Rondix 35).

- Kodak Foto-Flo 200 concentrate wetting agent, mix to working solution at 1:199 dilution (1ml of wetting agent in 199ml of water for Rondix 35).

- Set up four cheap chemical beakers ... #1 for working developer, #2 for plain water**, #3 for working fixer, #4 for wetting agent. Have 1L jug filled with plain water on hand. Make sure everything has stood long enough at room temperature (about 70-72°F) to be the same temperature.

** You will use this beaker for the fresh water "stop bath" and for the wash procedure. Note that there is no need for an acid stop bath with film development—a fresh water stop bath does enough and removes enough developer from the tank and film so as not to compromise the fixer.

Processing workflow:

- Load film into Rondix 35. Load developer into Rondix 35.

- Process* for 9 minutes, with gentle, steady motion of the winding handle on the tank.

* The Rondix 35 tank is a continuous agitation device: once you start to process (which means turning the handle until you reach the end of the film than turning it the other way until you reach the end, and then back again over and over for however long a process step takes), the film is in constant motion. You turn the handle at a steady pace, about one revolution per second, throughout every process stage. With standard type tanks, I use light and frequent agitation ... meaning I tip the tank about 30° once every 15-20 seconds.

- Pour out developer (save it if you like, you can process up to three rolls 135-36 with one batch of developer and fixer), pour in fresh water and process for 1 minute.

- Pour out fresh water, pour in fixer and process for 9 minutes.

- Pour out fixer (save fixer as above if you want to re-use)

- Pour in fresh rinse/wash water, process for 2 minutes, pour out. Repeat this six or seven times.

- Pour in wetting agent, process for 1 minute, then pour out.

- Hang film to dry with weights. (I use a rubber clothes line in my shower stall with one clothes pin to hold the film and another to weight the frew end).
===

The whole process generally takes 25 minutes or so. Film is generally dry in about an hour or two depending on ambient temperature and humidity.

I've used this exact procedure for a whole bunch of different films (agfa 25, agfa 400, tri-x, plus-x, ferrania P33, etc), all with excellent results. (note - Ferrania P30 likes more exposure and a longer processing time with more dilute developer: I give it ISO 25-40 exposure rather than the factory ISO 80, mix the developer at 1:99, and process for 17 minutes.)

G

 

[DownUnder]

the meter works,

Noted. My question - is it accurate?

I have three Gossens, 15 Westons of varied vintages and designs, and a small box of other 1950s-1970s meters. Also a Sekonic. A few read the same, but the basic problem here is, three or four read the same, while two or three others read differently but the same. (I hope this doesn't confuse you too much, but do feel free to disagree.)

So which is the 'true' reading? A film test is the best way to verify this. But then if the processing is off, well. You know.

I have the feeling that I'm preaching to an empty barrel here. But a fair bit of useful data has come out of this thread, so why not?

Again, many 'gros mercies' (as the French Canadians like to say big thank yous) to Chris Crawford, Ko-Fe and Godfrey for having taken the time to 'educate' us on the important basics of disciplined film processing. Chris especially is a valuable mine of useful data on films, processing, printing and scanning - but this isn't to say that the input of the others is not valued, it surely is.

I shudder to think of what may now follow about printing, and why someone's print quality is all over the place...

however i use something called a sekonic hand held digital meter. That is accurate.

 

[daveoo]

This thread is useful to me as a beginner, and thanks also to Chris's web site. My journey is to learn what are acceptable, good and great results. And to decide what I like. I am sticking to one developer at this time and following massive. And I am photographing non-critical subjects but still practicing some composition and exposure.

Hang in there omega, any success developing is personally meaningful and rewarding. Your posts are meaningful to me because I am always tempted to swerve off the beaten path. 🙂 Hope your next posts are mundane and boast of success.

Edit: Clarity

 

[Andrew Sowerby]

Chris's advice is good. I'll only add that in the past 1-2 years I've found Tri-X to be finicky. I've abandoned it and shoot Ilford film only.

Fussing around with homemade chemicals will result in a lot of wasted film. Not my idea of fun, but knock yourself out if it appeals to you.