dogbunny
Registered Boozer
Title says it all. Also, any agitation variation. You experiences and opinions welcome.
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Pushing Tri-X in D76, 1:1 vs straight?
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
In theory (and in my own experience, in practice) 1+1 gives a slight true ISO speed increase but also, as the inevitable penalty, bigger grain. The advantages are, however, often overstated -- quite unlike other trivial variations in photography, then.
Cheers,
R.
Cheers,
R.
Vincent.G
Well-known
Tri-X @ EI1600
You can try D-76 1+1 for 13min at 20 degrees celcius.
I have learnt that experimentation is important.
You can use our timing and dilution as a guide and adjust from there.
Good luck! 🙂
You can try D-76 1+1 for 13min at 20 degrees celcius.
I have learnt that experimentation is important.
You can use our timing and dilution as a guide and adjust from there.
Good luck! 🙂
grapejohnson
Well-known
There are only benefits with 1:1, unless you want it done quicker and don't care about the results. At 1:1, you have a bigger margin of error with time. Tri-X develops much faster than many Ilford films. Therefore you can push it to speeds like 1600 and it takes as long as a regular roll of HP5 at 400 or so. Diluting also gives finer grain. I find that when I shoot Tri-X at 1600, other than some of the deep blacks in the shadows, you can't really tell it's been pushed at all. If I need speed and don't want huge grain, I prefer Tri-X to something like TMax 3200, which is only one stop faster and is some of the graininest films I've ever seen.
I agitate first whole minute, then 10 seconds/minute after. The main thing is, experiment a bit and see what you like.
I agitate first whole minute, then 10 seconds/minute after. The main thing is, experiment a bit and see what you like.
pdh
Established
Jerzy Grzesinski
Newbie
Me too, (I think Roger is right: http://www.silverprint.co.uk/info/D76.html
Also, you can find some more info here: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?10594-D-76-Dilutions-and-Effects)
taskoni
Well-known
I personally never use D-76 for push.
I push tri-x with T-max developer (I got use to these two developers and don't use any others) which works great for me.
Regards,
Boris
I push tri-x with T-max developer (I got use to these two developers and don't use any others) which works great for me.
Regards,
Boris
MartinP
Veteran
Ooo, fun answers. The dilution of the developer has a relatively larger effect on the grain-solvent action than on the overall development. The grains which are formed are affected less by the solvent in ID11/D76 and are therefore bigger (less is eaten away from the silver) but also the grains and the image should look sharper (though only subtly, without a high enlargement).
It is a long time since I have used straight ID11, as the only downside with 1+1 is a little extra time -- which could also even be a benefit, by helping timing accuracy, if you otherwise needed a very short development time for some unusual film or other.
It is a long time since I have used straight ID11, as the only downside with 1+1 is a little extra time -- which could also even be a benefit, by helping timing accuracy, if you otherwise needed a very short development time for some unusual film or other.
maxwell1295
Well-known
I've pushed Tri-X to 1600 in D-76 1:1 doing a bit of a semi-stand for 16 mins. Normal agitation til 13:00, stand the rest of the way. I've also done it 15/12 with similar results.
16/13 here
Drain by alanabramsphotography, on Flickr
15/12 here
Berger Bros by alanabramsphotography, on Flickr
16/13 here
Drain by alanabramsphotography, on Flickr
15/12 here
Berger Bros by alanabramsphotography, on Flickr
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
RFF member Bill Pierce had a great article in POP Photography magazine in around Oct. 1978 about diluting developers like D 76 and Rodinal and their effect on grain, sharpness, shadow detail etc.
I remember him mentioning the higher dilution of D76 therefor the higher dilution of the sodium sulfite, the largest ingredient in D76, will cause the developer to give sharper results at the expense of edgier grain as the less diluted sodium sulfite had the added effect of rounding out the edges in each film grain.
I wish Bill Pierce would put that POP Photo magazine article on line, as it was an excellent read.
pdh
Established
I'm aware of the effect of diluting D76 and the reasoning behind it, so I wasn't challenging the chemistry, but it amused me to see direct contradictions in the space of two posts ... it's no wonder people get confused and think developing film is some sort of rocket surgery
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Martin,
Indeed: that's the fundamental point. More speed AND finer grain exists principally in the eyes of those who see what they want to see. But it's depressing how many people conflate grain, sharpness and resolution.
Cheers,
R.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
dogbunny
Registered Boozer
Thanks for the comments and the examples.
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Rob-F
Likes Leicas
From Steve Anchell and Bill Troop's 'The Film developing Cookbook" page 156: D-76 without dilution is recommended for pushing Tri-X to 1600 (13 minutes). D-76 at 1:1 is only recommended for Tri-X at 400.
In general, it seems that more active developers are used for pushing.
When D-76 is diluted, the Sodium Sulfite is diluted along with it. While the reduction in grain size can result in a loss of speed, it seems that some reduction can be beneficial. Again, from Anchell & Troop (page 42):
"D-76 and film speed
"In theory, a developer like D-76 which dissolves part of the silver should reduce effective film speed. Yet D-76 is often cited as offering the best exploitation of a given film's speed/grain capability. One reason is that, in the first stages of development, the sulfite in D-76 dissolves a small amount of silver and uncovers latent image sites which would not otherwise be available for development. This amounts to an effective gain in speed, a serendipitous effect not planned by Capstaff when he formulated D-76 in 1927. It was well into the 1970s before researchers began to understand this mechanism."
It seems that developers that do not dissolve a little silver are surface developers only; while those that do dissolve a little silver are depth developers. The latter can access a greater volume of silver upon which to act, thereby increasing effective film speed. The trick is not to etch away too much silver. That would decrease the speed once again, by taking away too much of the grains. It would reduce sharpness, too.
In general, it seems that more active developers are used for pushing.
When D-76 is diluted, the Sodium Sulfite is diluted along with it. While the reduction in grain size can result in a loss of speed, it seems that some reduction can be beneficial. Again, from Anchell & Troop (page 42):
"D-76 and film speed
"In theory, a developer like D-76 which dissolves part of the silver should reduce effective film speed. Yet D-76 is often cited as offering the best exploitation of a given film's speed/grain capability. One reason is that, in the first stages of development, the sulfite in D-76 dissolves a small amount of silver and uncovers latent image sites which would not otherwise be available for development. This amounts to an effective gain in speed, a serendipitous effect not planned by Capstaff when he formulated D-76 in 1927. It was well into the 1970s before researchers began to understand this mechanism."
It seems that developers that do not dissolve a little silver are surface developers only; while those that do dissolve a little silver are depth developers. The latter can access a greater volume of silver upon which to act, thereby increasing effective film speed. The trick is not to etch away too much silver. That would decrease the speed once again, by taking away too much of the grains. It would reduce sharpness, too.
